Boston becoming like San Francisco? (Somerville, Chelsea: purchases, taxes, to live in)

[Space_League]

Spoiler

Still a lot of families in Boston making <50k

Noticably smaller percentages in the lower brackets for Camberville

Quincy is closer to Boston it seems but fewer families in Poverty and a greater share in the lower middle class range

[massnative71]

Originally Posted by id77

In a town full of millionaires, millionaires are the middle class. In Atherton, CA the median HHI is over $450,000, so a family making $450,000 is middle class. They may be filthy rich in another place, but for where they live, they're the average. Middle class.

Why do you insist on defining it over a larger area that dilutes the data? Of course people are going to howl about housing costs in a Belmont or Winchester if they compare it to housing in a Chelsea or New Bedford, but they're different markets today and have less in common with one another every passing day.

And that is another reason Boston is becoming more like San Francisco. They both have metro housing markets that may seem wildly out of control to most of the US, but in their own local markets are quite normal and showing no signs of reversal.

So you are also OK calling a dish washer or Dunkin Donuts worker in Chelsea middle class?


Sorry, but that the Boston area is becoming increasingly economically segregated does not also redefine class definitions. An elite town full of millionaires is an elite town full of millionaires. It's not a middle class town nor are most of the people living there middle class. You are confusing class structure with a "community"'s norm or median. Two DRASTICALLY different things. I can't believe I am having this ridiculous conversation.


Also you are literally talking in circles, bud. First you want to define classes by who is moving into what town and how much they are spending. Now you backtrack and say "who already lives there" is who defines what class is (ie. are you now admitting I was correct, that the person dropping $500K in a town full of nurses, teachers and government workers is wealthier than middle class)??? Huge contradictions all around, and I'm getting super dizzy trying to follow.

[msRB311]

Uh what would you call it? My cousin is a cop and just bought a house down the cape a year ago and she charges $3000 a week to rent it. She is the landlord and yeah...that's a job. She owns properties in Dorchester and east boston as well.

We have a friend who is a state trooper and owns many homes in Dorchester that he rents out and a few in Milton. I wouldn't be surpised if he makes the majority of his money from his real estate gig.

and yes, people make additional income on the side trading stocks. Why couldn't that be referred to as a side job? it probably makes more than someone working shifts at a restaurant.

Another friends husband is a firefighter and has a contracting business on the side.

Wow, people here are so out of touch with reality sometimes.

[id77]

Originally Posted by msRB311

But i think sometimes people like you have trouble accepting that there are people in jobs that are typically seen as middle class (cops, nurses, firefighters, plumbers) who can and do make a great salary in this area. You don't seem to want to believe that or accept it. Some cops and firefighters make just as much as an engineer and that seems to make people here angry. it's kind of funny actually. Some of them even have *gasp* side jobs.

I have never been to San Francisco. I don't live in Boston although my job is based in boston and one day i might need to go there again. If Boston becomes the next SF so be it. I have two homes in Boston coming to me one day when someone dies. Fine with me.

I accept all of what you just said. Salary doesn't upset me; overtime abuse and putting in 90 hour work weeks (often tired and less efficient due to the load) does, if I'm following where I think you're getting this idea from.

This sounds like it's all about definitions. I use the terms "middle class" and "working class" as two different things. One is about the types of jobs within it, and the other is a statistical measure of one's economic position within a group. You're using middle class to mean much of what I see as working class. Perhaps that's the confusion?

None of this is about, nor should be about, individual jobs. When I speak, I throw out jobs like finance and engineering as they are typical jobs that I see typical people in the area with. None of my neighbors are plumbers or cops, but they are doctors, engineers, lawyers, professors, business owners, and the like. If it's retail and food service workers who are buying homes for $1 million, great.

None of this makes for anger, though. Disagreement isn't anger. I'm starting to think you think some of us get angry when we really, really don't.

[massnative71]

Originally Posted by id77

None of my neighbors are plumbers or cops, but they are doctors, engineers, lawyers, professors, business owners, and the like.

Those are generally considered upper middle-class. Maybe it's you who is confused by middle vs. upper-middle distinctions?

[msRB311]

lol but no one is talking about OT abuse. Cops make $120-$150k easily with no OT abuse.

You will make people angry when you assume that every cop abuses OT. My cousin who is a cop doesn't even do OT. But it's so nice of you to be concerned about how police officers live their lives.

'When I speak, I throw out jobs like finance and engineering as they are typical jobs that I see typical people in the area with. None of my neighbors are plumbers or cops, but they are doctors, engineers, lawyers, professors, business owners, and the like. If it's retail and food service workers who are buying homes for $1 million, great.'

and that's where you sound arrogant again. You are new to the area and don't realize all that is going on around you. Many doctors, lawyers and professors don't necessarily make a lot of money these days.

The amount of classism that spews from your mouth is offensive.

[Space_League]

35% of Boston families make under 50k household income

21.8% are under 25k household income

so only 13.2% are making 25-50k

More families in poverty than in lower middle/working class income brackets in Boston. Not surprising

[id77]

Originally Posted by massnative71

So you are also OK calling a dish washer or Dunkin Donuts worker in Chelsea middle class?

If their finances fall within the middle class for buyers for Chelsea, yes. I'm sure there's many towns across the nation where HHI income is around $25-30k and such jobs are within the middle class.

Originally Posted by massnative71

Sorry, but that the Boston area is becoming increasingly economically segregated does not also redefine class definitions. An elite town full of millionaires is an elite town full of millionaires. It's not a middle class town nor are most of the people living there middle class. You are confusing class structure with a "community"'s norm or median. Two DRASTICALLY different things. I can't believe I am having this ridiculous conversation.

Also you are literally talking in circles, bud. First you want to define classes by who is moving into what town and how much they are spending. Now you backtrack and say "who already lives there" is who defines what class is??? Huge contradictions all around, and I'm getting super dizzy trying to follow.

It's not about social class in this discussion. I'm not confusing it; I'm trying to be very, very clear that I'm not talking about social class, but you keep trying to make this about social class. They are drastically different things which is precisely why I keep trying to tell you the version I'm using and what it means.

Rather than continuing to waste each other's time, what term would you prefer I use to refer to the class of people who make up the middle .. class .. of a local population?

You're spinning yourself around. Never said it's about who's lived there a while, it's changing as people continue to move in. I'm trying to make the point that people who bought 20 years ago before prices went up are no longer the benchmark for measurement because they're not part of the market. When they sell and buy again in the same neighborhood, they become representative of the market, or they sell and move out because they can't afford to stay and get replaced by someone who is representative of the market. In fact, those long-time residents are largely irrelevant to this discussion -- it's meaningless to people of similar economic standing who can't travel back in time to afford the local market.

[id77]

Originally Posted by Space_League

Still a lot of families in Boston making <50k

Noticably smaller percentages in the lower brackets for Camberville

Quincy is closer to Boston it seems but fewer families in Poverty and a greater share in the lower middle class range

One data point I've seen that explains some of this is retirees. They tend to have less income, either fixed or in bursts, but have significant assets. If you own your place outright and don't make big ticket purchases but once every few years, you can have years of lower AGI as you withdraw less.

The gap from median to mean is also noteworthy in showing that there's not much median in Boston; one is either well below or well above it. This is backed up by the $75-100k group only making up 10% of the population.

[msRB311]

What other people make and where they should live and belong in society seems to be a recurring theme with you here on this forum. and you argue about it anytime someone says something that doesn't fit in with the image and ideals you have in your head. You clearly don't want to learn anything new about how other people live their lives and make their livings. Not everyone needs to be a millionaire to live in the Boston area. You clearly have disdain towards hard working middle class and working class people and couldnt fathom that any of them could possibly live in your neighborhood...even though it's your neighborhood that is filled with homeless drug users. Somehow that's ok.