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Influence Map: http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2450/...77211f6c_o.png
- Cleveland/Akron/Canton + most Youngstown/Warren are all under "Cleveland", while Buffalo and Rochester are clearly separate.
Cleveland is 4.6 million there, or 15th nationwide.
East US light Density map: http://www.getintonature.com/images/east_us%5B1%5D.jpg
- Cleveland much larger than Buffalo, Cleveland/Akron/Canton appears as one area, Buffalo and Rochester clearly separate areas more-so than Cleveland-Youngstown again. This is 1994 as well, Cleveland/Akron/Canton/Youngstown has filled in more, those blank areas between Buffalo and Rochester are still rural.
New Urban area criteria for 2010 census: http://www.census.gov/geo/www/ua/fedregv75n163.pdf
- Cleveland/Akron/Canton merged as one urban area for over 2.7 million (this number does not include rural population or lower density areas population, with them it would be 3.4 million)
Was for Proposed High speed Rail: http://freepdfhosting.com/bbd69061cf.pdf
- shows heavy interaction & commuting between Cleveland-Akron-Canton to Youngstown to Pittsburgh
Last, the official 2010 census maps: Mapping the 2010 U.S. Census - NYTimes.com
- Especially check population density, no competition between Cleveland/Akron/Canton and the separate areas Buffalo and Rochester.
And wondered, what if Buffalo and Rochester joined forces for economic success in a combined metro area? Like Dallas/Fort Worth?
I read this (understand this is a Cleveland booster):
And wondered, what if Buffalo and Rochester joined forces for economic success in a combined metro area? Like Dallas/Fort Worth?
I have recommended this for a long time. There's much to be gained. One thing I always believed would help is taking the tolls off of the thruway, making it feel more like a local highway. Also completing rt 531 from Rochester through Brockport, Holley, Albion, Medina, Lockport and Lewiston, connecting to the 990. I have stats that show about 20,000 people already commute between Erie and Monroe counties each way daily.
A few years back, the Mayor of Rochester, Bill Johnson made a proposal called "The Power of Three"
with Buffalo and Syracuse. I even remember seeing the 3 mayors together on stage on the news, but nothing became of the proposal.
In the early 1970s there was a proposal to build a $307M jet port in Batavia to serve Buffalo and Rochester, with high-speed rail connections to each city. (Wheatfield was also proposed but would not serve Rochester area well). This would have required closing BUF and ROC airports, and looking at old news reports there were concerns that the distance to Batavia would result in fewer airline passengers due to loss of convenience. Back then BUF had about 2M passengers per year, and ROC 1.5M. Currently BUF serves about 5M and ROC about 2.5M.
A regional airport, with sufficient room for expansion, may have made it possible to serve as a hub, and may possibly have contributed to greater transportation accessibility and business growth had it been built. It would also have served to bring 2 cities together, as DFW did in the 80s.
When you have municipalities in Erie County raiding each other to steal away businesses and no cohesive regional economic development plan for Erie and Niagara counties, which are only 25 miles apart, I would say the idea that Buffalo and Rochester would ever join forces to promote economic growth is not going to happen in most of our lifetimes. While in theory this is a desirable thing, you simply don't have the political will or the visionary leadership in either city to make it happen. Furthermore, I question whether the citizens of each city and metro are ready to take this step. Buffalonians cling to the idea that the city on its own will someday return to its glory years as one of the country's largest and most important cities. No help needed from Rochester or anywhere else. Are Rochesterians ready to embrace Buffalo whom many consider a Rust Belt relic while they see Rochester as an up coming center of technology. Currently there are no meaningful civic or cultural institutions that the two cities share to even get people thinking regionally, the exception being the Bills and the Sabres but even here, they are the Buffalo Bills and the Buffalo Sabres. And given the anemic growth in both cites both economically and in population, I think it is more likely that Buffalo and Rochester will continue to compete for whatever scarce business each city can attract, rather than cooperate for the good of both. I could be wrong but that is what I see happening.
Just to add fuel to the fire, I saw a BizJournals poll that asked people how often they go to Rochester in a year.
Most said at least once a year or never, and I would fall into the "Never" category. Friends I know in Rochester say the same about Buffalo. There needs to be services/amenities in both cities that would have people going there more often.
The sad thing is that it shouldn't be an unusual or unlikely concept to merge the two areas together. If you look at Google Maps, the Bay Area is one big metro area, but to get from DT San Fran to DT San Jose, it's an hour drive. For much of that drive, the towns and villages along the US 101/280 corridor are built up to the point where it's like one big city.
Most of us who have gone along the I-90 to Rochester know this is not the case.
I actually think that the key would be Batavia and Genesee County. It is a part of its own Micropolitan area and if it could somehow get more investment and development, it could bridge the two metros in order to form an economic conglomerate.
I think it is the same in terms of bridging the Rochester and Syracuse areas, as Seneca County and Cayuga County/Auburn have to be developed at a higher level in order to bridge the gap. Both are also Micropolitan areas as well.
Just to add fuel to the fire, I saw a BizJournals poll that asked people how often they go to Rochester in a year.
Most said at least once a year or never, and I would fall into the "Never" category. Friends I know in Rochester say the same about Buffalo. There needs to be services/amenities in both cities that would have people going there more often.
The sad thing is that it shouldn't be an unusual or unlikely concept to merge the two areas together. If you look at Google Maps, the Bay Area is one big metro area, but to get from DT San Fran to DT San Jose, it's an hour drive. For much of that drive, the towns and villages along the US 101/280 corridor are built up to the point where it's like one big city.
Most of us who have gone along the I-90 to Rochester know this is not the case.
The thing is that these are two cities are very different, very separate municipalities that developed independently and serve as the major metro for two very different areas. Buffalo is the major metro in "Western NY", ie Niagara, Erie, Chautauqua, Cattaragus, Allegany, Wyoming, Genessee, and Orleans Counties. Rochester is the major metro for entirely different set of counties, primarily in the western Finger Lakes, just as Syracuse serves the eastern Finger Lakes and the western Mohawk Valley. These separate cities developed because before the automobile and the NYS Thruway, traveling 70 miles was a big deal, likely a 2 day trip! Distance mattered.
I think you are mistaken in thinking that bigger metros like San Francisco or Chicago or New York City somehow form "one big city" where lots of people do things all over the metro. That's really not how people live. Within cities or even suburbs, people live in neighborhoods, and in bigger metros, people seldom leave those neighborhoods except for work or special events. Frequently, if they can afford it, people will move to a neighborhood that's convenient to their jobs so that they don't have to travel particularly far/long from their homes to work. So, even today, distance and time matter! Except for special events, most people don't want to regularly spend an hour traveling to something and then another hour back if they can get the same thing closer to where they live.
Look at it another way. What if the new Bills stadium were built in downtown Rochester in order to put "services/amenities" in Rochester to draw Buffalonians there? What if people from South Buffalo were forced to serve federal jury duty in Rochester rather than Buffalo and people from Newark were forced to serve federal jury duty in Buffalo? What if Erie County residents could only get marriage licenses in Rochester and Monroe County residents had to travel to downtown Buffalo to register their cars? That's what you're suggesting basically.
When you have municipalities in Erie County raiding each other to steal away businesses and no cohesive regional economic development plan for Erie and Niagara counties, which are only 25 miles apart, I would say the idea that Buffalo and Rochester would ever join forces to promote economic growth is not going to happen in most of our lifetimes. While in theory this is a desirable thing, you simply don't have the political will or the visionary leadership in either city to make it happen. Furthermore, I question whether the citizens of each city and metro are ready to take this step. Buffalonians cling to the idea that the city on its own will someday return to its glory years as one of the country's largest and most important cities. No help needed from Rochester or anywhere else. Are Rochesterians ready to embrace Buffalo whom many consider a Rust Belt relic while they see Rochester as an up coming center of technology. Currently there are no meaningful civic or cultural institutions that the two cities share to even get people thinking regionally, the exception being the Bills and the Sabres but even here, they are the Buffalo Bills and the Buffalo Sabres. And given the anemic growth in both cites both economically and in population, I think it is more likely that Buffalo and Rochester will continue to compete for whatever scarce business each city can attract, rather than cooperate for the good of both. I could be wrong but that is what I see happening.
I don't see why the two cities remaining separate is a problem. Sorry, but nothing about community consolidation really contributes to economic development in and of itself. New York City was once only Manhattan. In the 1890s, it annexed most its current territory, and for a long time, but that consolidation had little to do with NYC's rise as North America's premier city. How, exactly, has consolidation made LA great? Oh, yeah, LA hasn't consolidated. Pasadena, Beverley Hills, Venice Beach, Irving, the San Fernando Valley are still independent municipalities -- and separate from one another. Louisville, Kentucky and Indianapolis, Indiana combining their city and county governments hasn't markedly improved either city's economic situation.
Either a city or a metro is going to grow on its own merits or it's going to sink. Combining two separate metros and pretending they're one big city when there's 70 miles and lots of hayfields, fruit farms, and cow pastures between them doesn't fool anybody. Neither does combining city and county governments when half the county is exurban or rural, and especially not when it's done to prevent minority control over a city where they are the majority of voters.
The thing is that these are two cities are very different, very separate municipalities that developed independently and serve as the major metro for two very different areas. Buffalo is the major metro in "Western NY", ie Niagara, Erie, Chautauqua, Cattaragus, Allegany, Wyoming, Genessee, and Orleans Counties. Rochester is the major metro for entirely different set of counties, primarily in the western Finger Lakes, just as Syracuse serves the eastern Finger Lakes and the western Mohawk Valley. These separate cities developed because before the automobile and the NYS Thruway, traveling 70 miles was a big deal, likely a 2 day trip! Distance mattered.
I think you are mistaken in thinking that bigger metros like San Francisco or Chicago or New York City somehow form "one big city" where lots of people do things all over the metro. That's really not how people live. Within cities or even suburbs, people live in neighborhoods, and in bigger metros, people seldom leave those neighborhoods except for work or special events. Frequently, if they can afford it, people will move to a neighborhood that's convenient to their jobs so that they don't have to travel particularly far/long from their homes to work. So, even today, distance and time matter! Except for special events, most people don't want to regularly spend an hour traveling to something and then another hour back if they can get the same thing closer to where they live.
Look at it another way. What if the new Bills stadium were built in downtown Rochester in order to put "services/amenities" in Rochester to draw Buffalonians there? What if people from South Buffalo were forced to serve federal jury duty in Rochester rather than Buffalo and people from Newark were forced to serve federal jury duty in Buffalo? What if Erie County residents could only get marriage licenses in Rochester and Monroe County residents had to travel to downtown Buffalo to register their cars? That's what you're suggesting basically.
Linda, actually Orleans County IS part of the Rochester metro. Genessee was too unto they granted it separate Micropolitan, but it is much more tied to Monroe County than Erie (just the facts). Wyoming County also has strong ties to Rochester
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