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I think most people on this thread have agreed that programs such as Section 8 are worthy programs for those that honestly need them; most people also agree that the program is widely abused and enables many scammers to avoid work and responsibility, while receiving undeserved-- and often unending-- handouts. Those who need assistance should be eligible for assistance programs until they can get back on their feet. Few people would resent or contest that. Most people want to help others-- when they need and deserve help.
But the rampant abuse is very hard to swallow for responsible, law-abiding people, who work very hard, do without and sacrifice a lot to make ends meet in a city as expensive as L.A. Many people who have high rents, impossible mortgages, escalating food, gas and insurance costs, plus some of the highest taxes in the country, can barely make it, while others receive a free pass. It really isn't very much fun working yourself to death to pay your ridiculous full-market rent and feed your kids Hamburger Helper, while the Section 8ers next door are grilling out steak on the patio of the apartment they rent for pennies on the dollar.
It used to be easy to define "poor" and "deserving," but the line blurs a little more every day. Every day, some middle classers are finding it increasingly hard to just hang on, to their home, their pride, their lifestyle. And when you're trying to work hard, pull your own weight and do the right thing, it becomes very difficult to condone a system so obviously, unresolvedly broken that people who do the wrong thing get rewarded, then flaunt it in your face... and in the face of your children, who ask, "Why can't we have what they have?"
It seems that good old-fashioned work ethic and sense of self-reliance that was once the backbone of America is a currency that won't take you very far these days... at least not in L.A. And while sad, that is the new reality and a lot of people just don't find it very fair.
I think most people on this thread have agreed that programs such as Section 8 are worthy programs for those that honestly need them; most people also agree that the program is widely abused and enables many scammers to avoid work and responsibility, while receiving undeserved-- and often unending-- handouts. Those who need assistance should be eligible for assistance programs until they can get back on their feet. Few people would resent or contest that. Most people want to help others-- when they need and deserve help.
But the rampant abuse is very hard to swallow for responsible, law-abiding people, who work very hard, do without and sacrifice a lot to make ends meet in a city as expensive as L.A. Many people who have high rents, impossible mortgages, escalating food, gas and insurance costs, plus some of the highest taxes in the country, can barely make it, while others receive a free pass. It really isn't very much fun working yourself to death to pay your ridiculous full-market rent and feed your kids Hamburger Helper, while the Section 8ers next door are grilling out steak on the patio of the apartment they rent for pennies on the dollar.
It used to be easy to define "poor" and "deserving," but the line blurs a little more every day. Every day, some middle classers are finding it increasingly hard to just hang on, to their home, their pride, their lifestyle. And when you're trying to work hard, pull your own weight and do the right thing, it becomes very difficult to condone a system so obviously, unresolvedly broken that people who do the wrong thing get rewarded, then flaunt it in your face... and in the face of your children, who ask, "Why can't we have what they have?"
It seems that good old-fashioned work ethic and sense of self-reliance that was once the backbone of America is a currency that won't take you very far these days... at least not in L.A. And while sad, that is the new reality and a lot of people just don't find it very fair.
I understand being frustrated with that which you mention - just remember that things are not always as they appear through the lens you are viewing them.
As just one example: Until my bankruptcy was settled last year I had a 99 Volvo S80 - a fairly expensive car. It was mine, free & clear. It appeared to be in fine condition & to those looking from the outside in - I'm certain many either wondered how someone on Social Security could afford such a luxury or they wondered why on earth I didn't sell it to make things better.
I wasn't born into my current situation. I had a life before injury. A very full & successful life. The car (which actually was in great disrepair mechanically) was all I had left from that former life. I did not have the legal right to sell it, as it was considered an asset that the bankruptcy trustee may have the right to. I felt no need to explain myself to anyone - although many felt the need & right to give me their 2 cents worth.
In the end, the car was used to pay off some of my medical bills in my bankruptcy. But, to all of you on the outside looking in - my life seemed pretty cushy. I could name many other such examples. It's very easy to get bitter when we compare our circumstances to others - only thinking from our own narrow viewpoint.
Next time you are jealous, angry, envious, or just plain pissed off at that someone having a steak on your tax dollar - bless them & be grateful for what you do have - because God knows that only they & Him really know the struggles of those steak eaters...
I'm certain there are plenty who are having that "steak" who would gladly trade the circumstances in their life that you fail to see (ill health, whatever) for your bills & responsibilities. Certainly, not all, but many would.
You don't KNOW what's going on with a person's life unless you're walking in his/her shoes. You can make all kinds of assumptions...and be dead wrong.
I'm 45 now and was diagnosed with a medical condition five years ago. I had to leave my home and my very productive life in Denver and move back home with my parents in SoCal. I didn't have a choice. I was granted disability one and a half years ago, and all of my health costs, meds, rent, board (yes, I pay my parents rent and board), and everything else that I need monthly comes out of my disability check. I'm trying very hard to save $100 a month, but some months I just can't make it. One of my meds costs me $197, even though I do have Medicare and am paying for a prescription drug plan...they don't cover that med and there's no generic. I am BLESSED to have parents who give me shelter and who I can rely on if I need something that I cannot supply myself. So many people in this world don't have anyone they can rely on like that. Talk about scary.
My only alternative would be to apply for Section 8 Housing. That terrifies me. I'm so afraid that I would never recover my life if I did that. I HOPE and am working toward getting some semblance of "normalcy" back in my life. I yearn to be back out on my own, buy my own house, living my life. There's no guarantee that I'll be able to do that, but it's something I'm working toward.
Not everyone who needs Section 8 Housing drinks, smokes, does drugs, or sleeps around.
You don't KNOW what's going on with a person's life unless you're walking in his/her shoes. You can make all kinds of assumptions...and be dead wrong.
I'm 45 now and was diagnosed with a medical condition five years ago. I had to leave my home and my very productive life in Denver and move back home with my parents in SoCal. I didn't have a choice. I was granted disability one and a half years ago, and all of my health costs, meds, rent, board (yes, I pay my parents rent and board), and everything else that I need monthly comes out of my disability check. I'm trying very hard to save $100 a month, but some months I just can't make it. One of my meds costs me $197, even though I do have Medicare and am paying for a prescription drug plan...they don't cover that med and there's no generic. I am BLESSED to have parents who give me shelter and who I can rely on if I need something that I cannot supply myself. So many people in this world don't have anyone they can rely on like that. Talk about scary.
My only alternative would be to apply for Section 8 Housing. That terrifies me. I'm so afraid that I would never recover my life if I did that. I HOPE and am working toward getting some semblance of "normalcy" back in my life. I yearn to be back out on my own, buy my own house, living my life. There's no guarantee that I'll be able to do that, but it's something I'm working toward.
Not everyone who needs Section 8 Housing drinks, smokes, does drugs, or sleeps around.
Life is filled with all sorts of choices. While you certainly had many choices, this was the one that best fit your needs given your circumstances. There's no shame in that. We all do the best we know how & When we know better - we do better.
I wish you well - I, too, am learning to put back the pieces of my life & create a new (hopefully) better life. I happen to have no one to assist me, so I am very grateful for being able to get the assistance of Section 8.
Again, I say that Section 8 is there for those who truly need it. You need it, you got it. A lot who need it, don't get it. A lot who don't get it, need it. A LOT of people are struggling these days, people who, as you point out, might not appear to be. So who's to decide who should get a cushy handout and who shouldn't? You? Me? A seriously flawed system? The crackhead down the street?
Sometimes you can't mend a broken toy. You can't always mend a broken system, either. As many of us have observed with our own eyes, Section 8 is too abused to be effective as an equitable assistance program. Until it is replaced with a workable system, it will continue to offend and outrage the many hardworking people who make it possible. So, please, forgive us for not bestowing blessings on the frauds and cheaters who are squandering our tax dollars that are desperately needed elsewhere. We're not "jealous" or "envious"-- we're just "angry" and "pissed off"-- because the current system gives unethical people an incentive to take... and take more. Young, healthy people limit their work hours to keep their income within the limits of assistance programs, so they can have more for less. Children do not learn to associate work with reward. It disincentivizes our youth and weakens the moral fiber of a society founded on a strong work ethic. The government that is helping you is failing us. Things really aren't what they seem, are they?
This isn't personal. Most of us who don't like Section 8 aren't criticizing you; we're criticizing the program. Every situation is different, as are the people. The situation I've described, while all too common, isn't mine. The opinion is. Good luck to you in rebuilding your life!
I accept the explanation you offer - & often am outraged myself at the abuses / misuses I see around me. But, I wonder why we are all so quick to point the finger at the system or the people involved in assisting the poor, when we say or do very little in the way of outrage or action regarding corporate welfare & the fraud / misuses involved in it? Why isn't there a public outcry & moral outrage at it? Why, because there always has to be a scapegoat in society for our frustration & anger - the rich have power & resources... while the poor do not. We're just feeding into the whole thing as it was set up. We're not supposed to notice or do anything about "them" - so let's just keep focus on this, huh?
Keeping it light, but keeping it real... BTW... I do believe that this country was founded on hardwork, indeed. The hardwork, blood, sweat, & tears of stolen people/stolen lives so we could have free labour. Even then, the majority of people could not afford slave labour, yet they supported/backed the minority who could. We can idealize our history, but the truth is far less pretty. Throughout history society has always scapegoated the poor and/or systems set up to help them - where's the outrage at the corporations bilking millions - hundreds of millions from the contracts in the attempt to build up our Coast Guard or the great number of other military contracts that have been sucked dry & our government has received little to nothing in return? I could go on, but we both get the other's point.
BTW... I worked not only in Human Resources before all this happened to me - but in Human Rights / Social Justice Non-Profit groups... so, you'll have to excuse my zeal.
The outrage on the "other" issues you have addressed is probably in some other forum. This string is a discussion about Section 8 fraud, abuse, ect.
You said "just remember that things are not always as they appear through the lens you are viewing them"
Here is my view: Across the street from my house, is a Section 8 home.
Fact:
1. The homeowner never comes around to check on his house
2. The renters (who have lived in this house for two years) own a nice ski boat (it is in the driveway), a 2003 Excursion with a very nice sound system (I know this because they are kind enough to share this with the neighborhood, on a regular basis), and a tricked-out 2006 Passat (the rims alone are worth about $4,000.00) and (again) a very nice sound system. Two of those mini-motorcycles (for the kids – worth about $800.00 each, they were a Christmas present to the two boys) and many other expensive little toys.
3. The husband has a full-time job, and (you guessed it) he is not supposed to be living in this house.
4. The 3 children who live in this house constantly terrorize the other children on the block, but because they know the "rules", they stop short of crossing any legal line.
5. The parents are terrible people. They are constantly yelling at the kids, cursing at them, screaming at them from down the street. They allow these kids to run rough-shod through the neighborhood without any supervision for 4-5 hours at a time. They send the kids outside, when they are home, there-by conforming to Hilary Clintons “It takes a village" concept (I guess that means we are to raise their kids). They constantly speed on our street.
Now, we have reported all of this to the Santa Clara County HUD fraud division. I actually got to speak to one (of 2 total) investigators. How did they handle this? Well, they brought the wife in and interviewed her. That was all. Nothing has changed.
I have spoken with (and written to) the local Sheriffs Dept, San Jose PD, and the Santa Clara County DA's office and guess what.... NOBODY CARES.
That’s MY VIEW, MY REALITY. The fact that these people (oh my god, I used that term... BTW, would someone tell me how to describe them otherwise if you think that this is an offensive term, because to me it is just a basic reference to them) are stealing from me, you and taking from others who truly need this assistance, is criminal... but nobody cares.
My actions, presently? I am walking into the wolfs den. I am trying to speak with an IRS fraud agent. I don’t know if they will care, but in my view, the husband is reaping benefits from unclaimed revenue. I am walking into the IRS and saying "Hey, here I am, look at me" hoping that they will want to look at them (only).
The crux of this matter (specific to you) is that you already have the assistance. Yet, if you did not have this assistance, but truly needed it and could not get it because the system was “full”, then where would you be?
The abuse is widespread and only the frustration and action of the people will change it. The problem is… all of us are too busy working and have little time left to deal with this type of garbage!
For HUD to spend money on investigating these types of issues, only exposes the problem they have. They would rather let it sit; hoping that nobody sees’s it for what it really is.
The politicians don’t care... spending money on investigators & investigations, does not get them votes. They (most of them, IMO) want people enslaved to the system, thereby making it a necessity for those enslaved, to vote for them in order to keep the system running on par!
Kilroy's experience is exactly like the experience of everyone I know. I lived next to a Section 8 building and a friend of mine lives down the street from one now, and every single tenant in both buildings is exactly as Kilroy describes. They drive very nice cars and have nice things. Their children are rude and terrorize the neighborhood. The parents scream at each other, usually around 2 or 3 in the morning, when working people are trying to sleep. They seemingly want for nothing... and take without giving anything back.
Section 8 posters on this forum argue that things are different-- and perhaps they are-- but those of us who have seen the abuse with our own eyes wonder. How can we not?
Kilroy makes an excellent point. What if you really needed Section 8 to get back on your feet after an illness, injury or long-term layoff and you couldn't get it, because scammers were monopolizing the system? What if you were elderly and needed some help... only the spots were all filled by young, healthy people who think work's a drag (but sure know how to work the system).
Then would you agree that standards should be tighter, scrutiny stricter and violations enforced? That's what most of the posters here are saying-- not that the program should be abolished for all, but that it should be reserved ONLY for those who honestly need it... not scammers who don't. If you have an issue with that, then maybe you should ask yourself which category you fall into.
I remember meeting one girl i new in college who was on welfare. She had a kid in college and came from a working class backround, so it was her kid her issue. Father of course not in the picture, girls on welfare, has the kid get all sorts of medicare, food stamps, section 8 etc. And with all this do you know what she would do when class was over?
Well yearning to be like the rest of the young and carefree student body (she gave that option up by having a kid), she would join teenagers in buying/ smoking weed. I saw this girl one time no lie, call her mom, beg her to put money in her bank, than walk over to an atm and pull out 100$ for a bag of weed she said she needed to buy....
I'm not certain what my response to your comments should be, in your opinion?! If I felt like it (which I don't), I could look up the statistics on how many people nationwide are receiving Section 8 Housing assistance. Then I could ask you of that number, how many specific cases have you observed that are "fraud, abuse, etc" (in your opinion). This issue is really no different that stereotyping or generalizing of any group of people. Even if you've known of, say, 200 such abuses - what percentage of the whole do you figure that would be?
My point just being that YES, abuse of every system happens. YES it is not acceptable & YES something should be done about it. But, rejecting the notion of allowing Section 8 tenants on the whole, into your neighborhoods because of that generalization - is unacceptable.
The fact that I now receive Section 8 does not alter my opinion on the matter. I have only had this blessed voucher since May of this year. And, for the many years before that I was paying my taxes & working my buns off just like you are. (I'm still working my buns off, only now it's on rehabilitation of my health - not employment)
I get pissed off at the same nonsense as anyone else, but I know how to put it all into perspective. I AM ON Section 8 & I still get pissed off at some of the stuff I see.
You state:
The crux of this matter (specific to you) is that you already have the assistance. Yet, if you did not have this assistance, but truly needed it and could not get it because the system was “full”, then where would you be?
Again, I haven't even had the assistance for one year yet & I was faced for some time with not being able to get a voucher. As I researched the matter trying to get the help I needed, I realized that a big part of the reason I could not get the help was because of the inaction, ineffectiveness, unaccountability, apathy, etc of the folks who work for the Section 8 program & many of those agency workers who are sort of feeder systems into that system (if that makes any sense).
Their jobs are tough. I don't deny that. Going down to the housing office is always a nightmare (at least at the Minneapolis Public Housing Authority - the Met Council is not bad at all). I, honestly, don't even want to be associated with many of the people who are waiting in those offices & yelling & acting a fool in one way or another. See, that's the thing. The "bad" ones always are more noticeable because they demand our attention.
But, getting plugged into this resource was no small feat to begin with. I only had about 100 bucks or so after my rent each month. My rent was about to go up by 100 bucks & my mgmt company was considering convertion of my building to condos. I was in dire need NOW. I happen to be one who qualifies for these super secret & super exclusive (lol) vouchers for some people with disabilities. (I do not qualify for a priority in the main program because I do not have a minor child)
I knew from my internet research that these special vouchers were available if only I could get some agency to plug me into them. The general wait list is something like 10 years long & they are nearly never taking new applicants to the list. So, this was my only way.
Everyone said they knew nothing of what I was talking about. I went through at least a year - if not more of hunting for that in (or another housing option). I honestly called the same places over & over again begging. Finally, one of the head folks that I had talked to at least 5 or 6 times before finally said, OKAY. I was instructed to keep this info SECRET because they don't want them to become common knowledge or everyone will think they deserve them.
I did what she said to do & filled out the initial paperwork. I was told that the next step should take 6 - 8 weeks max & I'd receive a voucher. GREAT. Thank God.
'Cept, that didn't happen. These vouchers were intended for folks who met specific criteria & because of those they were considered high priority & it was like an "emergency" to find them housing. This process was to expedite the whole process & skip all the "redtape".
Over the next year I was drowning in red.
I found that those working within the system - systematically put up roadblocks, stalled paperwork, "lost" paperwork, never returned calls, "didn't receive paperwork or calls", fabricated rules / regulations / guidelines, & most of the time didn't know the rules / regulations / guidelines they were charged with knowing, applying, enforcing.
I saw rampant abuse by the people within the agency. I saw pure laziness on their parts (in some instances). I saw ineffectiveness. I saw people simply not knowing their own jobs & then making excuses for themselves. I saw LYING & DECEPTION.
I have a background in Human Resource Management & Community Advocacy. I'm one smart cookie. I have many health issues & struggle greatly. It may take me a lot longer to get things done. But, I cannot be silenced. I pissed a lot of people off.
I found out that the City Council is the governing body over the housing authority & I happened to be living in one of the best Wards in Minneapolis with one of the best City Council Persons I have ever encountered & may ever encounter. His office "took care of business". But, they were shocked & dismayed at what they experienced themselves. In the end, I was actually threatened by those at the PHA that my "trouble making" could mean that I do not receive a voucher (they even stated that they weren't trying to scare me or threaten me or anything, BUT...). My councilperson's office had me transferred to a suburban authority instead - because of what they saw.
I do ramble, I realize. But, this is my long answer to your inquiry. I found that the roadblock to my receiving assistance wasn't any other recipient = but those working within the system itself. The system truly is broken in many ways (at least in the MPHA - the Metro HRA is incredibly competent).
While trying to access a voucher, I was never bitter against those who already had them. I did have occasion to get riled up when I saw some of the things you referenced. I really got peeved a couple times when I encountered a couple people who allowed themselves to lose their assistance because of pure laziness at completing the necessary verifications while I was fighting to prevent my own homelessness. But, if you fixate on the problem folks, you'll miss all that IS right with the system.
This Metro HRA is on top of things & they don't seem to allow any mess. There will always be folks who are "triflin" whether receiving Section 8 or not. In the end, what I am asking you all to do is to not blanketly reject all people who receive Section 8 from your communities. The ones who are the remainder of the equation referenced above are the ones who blend quietly in your communities because they are good, honest, decent people just trying to make their way in life.
Please try to consider us on a case by case basis - I deserve consideration to live in a decent neighborhood too.
PULEEZZZZZZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(listen, if my diatribes annoy you - remember, I have a brain injury & simply don't know how to be more concise )
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilroy
reciprocity,
The outrage on the "other" issues you have addressed is probably in some other forum. This string is a discussion about Section 8 fraud, abuse, ect.
You said "just remember that things are not always as they appear through the lens you are viewing them"
Here is my view: Across the street from my house, is a Section 8 home.
Fact:
1. The homeowner never comes around to check on his house
2. The renters (who have lived in this house for two years) own a nice ski boat (it is in the driveway), a 2003 Excursion with a very nice sound system (I know this because they are kind enough to share this with the neighborhood, on a regular basis), and a tricked-out 2006 Passat (the rims alone are worth about $4,000.00) and (again) a very nice sound system. Two of those mini-motorcycles (for the kids – worth about $800.00 each, they were a Christmas present to the two boys) and many other expensive little toys.
3. The husband has a full-time job, and (you guessed it) he is not supposed to be living in this house.
4. The 3 children who live in this house constantly terrorize the other children on the block, but because they know the "rules", they stop short of crossing any legal line.
5. The parents are terrible people. They are constantly yelling at the kids, cursing at them, screaming at them from down the street. They allow these kids to run rough-shod through the neighborhood without any supervision for 4-5 hours at a time. They send the kids outside, when they are home, there-by conforming to Hilary Clintons “It takes a village" concept (I guess that means we are to raise their kids). They constantly speed on our street.
Now, we have reported all of this to the Santa Clara County HUD fraud division. I actually got to speak to one (of 2 total) investigators. How did they handle this? Well, they brought the wife in and interviewed her. That was all. Nothing has changed.
I have spoken with (and written to) the local Sheriffs Dept, San Jose PD, and the Santa Clara County DA's office and guess what.... NOBODY CARES.
That’s MY VIEW, MY REALITY. The fact that these people (oh my god, I used that term... BTW, would someone tell me how to describe them otherwise if you think that this is an offensive term, because to me it is just a basic reference to them) are stealing from me, you and taking from others who truly need this assistance, is criminal... but nobody cares.
My actions, presently? I am walking into the wolfs den. I am trying to speak with an IRS fraud agent. I don’t know if they will care, but in my view, the husband is reaping benefits from unclaimed revenue. I am walking into the IRS and saying "Hey, here I am, look at me" hoping that they will want to look at them (only).
The crux of this matter (specific to you) is that you already have the assistance. Yet, if you did not have this assistance, but truly needed it and could not get it because the system was “full”, then where would you be?
The abuse is widespread and only the frustration and action of the people will change it. The problem is… all of us are too busy working and have little time left to deal with this type of garbage!
For HUD to spend money on investigating these types of issues, only exposes the problem they have. They would rather let it sit; hoping that nobody sees’s it for what it really is.
The politicians don’t care... spending money on investigators & investigations, does not get them votes. They (most of them, IMO) want people enslaved to the system, thereby making it a necessity for those enslaved, to vote for them in order to keep the system running on par!
Just my opinion.
BTW, Thanks for the links, VickyVicky.
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