Vandals attack Santa Cruz church (neighborhoods, to live, move to)

[Vary]

Originally Posted by TheCalifornianWriter

They would have to be changed/educated for the purposes of colonization someday...might as well have been then.

And this brings us to one of the most vile, contemptible and shameful parts of American history--Indian boarding schools. That was savagery at it's finest. People are still walking around today bearing the horrific scars--inside and out--of this piece of barbarism orchestrated by the U.S. government.

They didn't need to be "changed/educated." It was the desire to take every last scrap of land from under their feet, with no plan to ever share this continent with them, that led to the idea that they needed to be "educated."

The Church has been dead wrong for centuries regarding this subject. White/European church leaders around the world have finally in recent years begun to genuinely apologize for the shameful treatment of indigenous peoples by both the Catholics and Protestants. Native-run ministries, who worship within the bounds of their own culture, and not according to what European/European Americans say is the proper way to worship, are vibrant and spreading throughout the world. As a pastor whose grandmother lived a hard life on the reservation, I do everything I can to support indigenous causes, nonprofits and artists with my time and money, and it is a joy to see nations gaining political strength and speaking out on all kinds of issues.

Indigenous peoples are once again having a say in what happens to the continents they've lived on for thousands of years.

[nullgeo]

Well, that's a wrap.

And let's hear it for hunter-gatherers around the world. What few are left. Take a look at the pygmie cultures. Egalitarian. Women and men equal. Taking no more, ever, than what they need from the land to survive. Leaving no trace of arrogance or stupidity behind for others to suffer.

Savages indeed. Do you think they don't love and laugh just as well as modern mankind? Right. They don't. They love and laugh better.

[rimmerama]

Originally Posted by Fontucky

I'll go with natives. As in the case of the Tongva and the Acajeman people, the simple life of living off the land and the sea, taking only what they needed, sounds like a very civilized existence to me. They even treated the firstrpaleface explorers peacefully and respectfully.* YMMV.

*initially, at least... until the palefaces showed their true colors

A certain irony hearing this sentiment posted via computer on the internet...

Originally Posted by nullgeo

Well, that's a wrap.

And let's hear it for hunter-gatherers around the world. What few are left. Take a look at the pygmie cultures. Egalitarian. Women and men equal. Taking no more, ever, than what they need from the land to survive. Leaving no trace of arrogance or stupidity behind for others to suffer.

Savages indeed. Do you think they don't love and laugh just as well as modern mankind? Right. They don't. They love and laugh better.

Another one!

Really, guys, I'm more than happy to make your dream of the simple foraging life come true, would you like my address so that you may send me all of your electronics and money?

[.highnlite]

Originally Posted by Vary

And this brings us to one of the most vile, contemptible and shameful parts of American history--Indian boarding schools. That was savagery at it's finest. People are still walking around today bearing the horrific scars--inside and out--of this piece of barbarism orchestrated by the U.S. government.

They didn't need to be "changed/educated." It was the desire to take every last scrap of land from under their feet, with no plan to ever share this continent with them, that led to the idea that they needed to be "educated."

The Church has been dead wrong for centuries regarding this subject. White/European church leaders around the world have finally in recent years begun to genuinely apologize for the shameful treatment of indigenous peoples by both the Catholics and Protestants. Native-run ministries, who worship within the bounds of their own culture, and not according to what European/European Americans say is the proper way to worship, are vibrant and spreading throughout the world. As a pastor whose grandmother lived a hard life on the reservation, I do everything I can to support indigenous causes, nonprofits and artists with my time and money, and it is a joy to see nations gaining political strength and speaking out on all kinds of issues.

Indigenous peoples are once again having a say in what happens to the continents they've lived on for thousands of years.

yep, pretty horrific schools. I once worked on a mostly indian fire crew, those guys had come through the old Stewart Indian School in Carson City. They were forbidden to speak their home language, etc.

Their self identity as a Hopi, or Aztec or Paiute was forcible destroyed, but they weren't allowed into white society. Dating a white girl from town was forbidden..


These kids tended to drink too much, for good reason.

[Fontucky]

Originally Posted by rimmerama

A certain irony hearing this sentiment posted via computer on the internet...



Another one!

Really, guys, I'm more than happy to make your dream of the simple foraging life come true, would you like my address so that you may send me all of your electronics and money?

Apparently you missed the post that spawned those comments... Or you didn't miss it, but it whooshed over your head.

[TheCalifornianWriter]

Originally Posted by nullgeo

Well, that's a wrap.

And let's hear it for hunter-gatherers around the world. What few are left. Take a look at the pygmie cultures. Egalitarian. Women and men equal. Taking no more, ever, than what they need from the land to survive. Leaving no trace of arrogance or stupidity behind for others to suffer.

Savages indeed. Do you think they don't love and laugh just as well as modern mankind? Right. They don't. They love and laugh better.

So, you'd rather live in such a way, I suppose? Oh, wait... like everyone else who makes the same argument, it's okay for YOU to keep your stuff and money, but shame on us who do the same without holding your cause.

Also, there's something better about societies that leave something behind...something grand to remind others in the future of their once great status. Injuns and natives all over the world may leave nothing behind, but the greatest world civilizations did. It's a kind of "Burn brighter, die sooner" thing. But who wants to just keep on living in primeval times?

[TheCalifornianWriter]

Originally Posted by .highnlite

yep, pretty horrific schools. I once worked on a mostly indian fire crew, those guys had come through the old Stewart Indian School in Carson City. They were forbidden to speak their home language, etc.

Their self identity as a Hopi, or Aztec or Paiute was forcible destroyed, but they weren't allowed into white society. Dating a white girl from town was forbidden..

These kids tended to drink too much, for good reason.

See, these are the problem. You guys are right. The schools in modern times were terrible. (Anyone seen Older Than America?)

But history is history and vandals are vandals.

[Fontucky]

Just admit you were wrong to refer to them as savages, which was a term used by their oppressors to dehumanize them, as it's always easier to kill people when you remove their humanity. You're floundering now and it isn't a pretty sight.

[TheCalifornianWriter]

Originally Posted by Fontucky

Just admit you were wrong to refer to them as savages, which was a term used by their oppressors to dehumanize them, as it's always easier to kill people when you remove their humanity. You're floundering now and it isn't a pretty sight.

Wrong? What else is there to call them? They were quite literally NOT civilized...indisputable, unless you happen to think of warring Europeans as "uncivilized." But remember: between wars, they had time for Faith, Science, Art, Literature, Music and Philosophy.

No, I stand by savages. Savages can be wild, rugged people or uncivilized, barbarous people or even just rude or boorish people. They all fit, more or less.

Fontucky, you're trying to make ME flounder.

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by TheCalifornianWriter

Fontucky, you're trying to make ME flounder.

You're doing a fine job all on your own.