California Rail Map (San Diego, San Francisco, Fresno: live, prices, lawsuits)

[tetka_grunya]

By 2060, the eight-county region will see its population more than double from about 4 million residents to 8.2 million residents, according to state projections released Thursday.

we may have much better ways to move around in 50 years...

and Central Valley could benefit much more from regional transportation system rather than statewide system using 60 years old technologies...

[nslander]

"Have we any assurance that $35 million is the final figure?" asked statistician H.P. Melnikow. He also questioned the motives of Strauss and his consulting engineers since "they are (financially) interested in this matter and are trying to sell it to us."

Traffic projections were "over-optimistic," declared another subcommittee, and "we would have liked to have seen the district's plans and estimates reviewed by an entirely disinterested body of technical experts before the people were asked to vote."

No formal position was taken by the Commonwealth Club, founded in 1903 as "an open forum for the discussion of disputed questions." But the two committees agreed the bond measure should be rejected "at this time." In the words of one researcher, "San Francisco should go slow, and be sure that any project will not jeopardize San Francisco's credit for more vital essential things."

The committee findings soon became fodder for a newspaper advertisement that began "MR. TAXPAYER: This Ad is published to save you money - READ IT." After all, they echoed what opponents had been saying all along: Things were moving too fast. There were too many unanswered questions. The numbers couldn't be trusted.

The ad was one of many placed by the Taxpayers' Committee Against Golden Gate Bridge Bonds. With a membership list that included future Mayor Roger Lapham and City Engineer M.M. O'Shaughnessy, this was no mere collection of gadflies. Such opponents insisted they weren't against the idea of a bridge, simply the reality of this one.

"I am in favor of a bridge across the Golden Gate if it can be physically and feasibly built," O'Shaughnessy declared in one ad. His statement then cautioned that toll bridges "too numerous to mention" didn't generate the traffic necessary to pay the costs of needed maintenance.
Golden Gate Bridge construction - and indignation - SFGate

[Senno]

Originally Posted by tetka_grunya

we may have much better ways to move around in 50 years...

and Central Valley could benefit much more from regional transportation system rather than statewide system using 60 years old technologies...

And in 50 years someone will say, "we may have much better ways to move around in 50 years..."

I am starting to look forward to high speed railing it to Madera to take in a midget race.

[nslander]

Originally Posted by tetka_grunya

we may have much better ways to move around in 50 years...

and Central Valley could benefit much more from regional transportation system rather than statewide system using 60 years old technologies...

Commercial air jet travel is over 60 years old. Internal combustion autos are older.

[jkbatca]

Originally Posted by nslander

I’m not inclined to argue with somebody who cites an anti-HSR hack like Ralph Vartbedian at the LAT as an authority

So specifically, what did he say which was wrong? Please provide legitimate sources to back up your assertions.

[BayAreaHillbilly]

I don't buy the big growth forecasts of the boosters. Sure we've seen a recent mini bubble in the Bay Area and a lesser one in LA, however, none of the current glam industries (Web X.0, biotech, Green Tech, etc) even comes close to the original heavy manufacturing - commercial high tech - defense nexus of the past century. Most of the high paying jobs which characterized the 20th Century especially its second half are gone forever and the current wave is a pathetic shadow of its parent. The other limiting factor is going to be water, check out the Cadillac Desert thread. We had it good during the 20th Century in terms of water supply but the typical pattern of long droughts will return shortly.

[jkbatca]

If the situation weren't so tragic for the CA taxpayer, the situation would be laughable. I just love how some extoll the virtues of HSR saying "France and Japan" have it. Well the tragic part is France and Japan HSR authorities DID actually come here and wanted to help CA out to make HSR a success and was sent home packing by the corrupt CA bureaucrats! France wanted to run the line along I-5 (and I agree with this), where CA already has the right of way, way less cost to build, and is way shorter to connect two major metropolitan areas (which was the point of this thing anyways). The current CA HSR route reflects a gerrymandered path with the sole purpose of getting more CA legislators on board. The gerrymandered route has way more right-of-ways to acquire and other obstacles to build around and more infrastructure to build. See for yourself where the current route goes vs I-5 and look at how much more distance and stops the current route has to take.

Speaking of right of ways, why didn't CA HSR start at the peninsula? Everyone knows why, they will have a big battle trying to get HSR anywhere near that area.

Other countries have installed whole HSR lines in 4 years, while Prop 1A was passed in 2008 and here it is in 2013 and have we even laid one rail down yet? And there's even more delays in that?

I can go on forever but there's so many design holes or shortcomings in this project that people way more knowledgeable than many posting here have walked away from this (France and Japan HSR authorities). But unfortunately, because the majority of CA voters believe everything they read on the Internet forums or Facebook and see on the 6PM news on TV, we will continue to get the same corrupt politicians pushing this project voted back in whether we like it or not.

[Bill the Butcher]

As a new Central Valley resident I highly doubt my family and I would use the high speed rail more than once or twice. Certainly wouldn't use it to travel to L.A. I imagine the cost of four roundtrip tickets would be considerably more than a tank of gas. And on top of that we would have to deal with the hassle, inconvenience and extra cost of paying for transportation once we are in the L.A. area. The advantages, one hour shorter, seem far outweighed by the disadvantages.

I could see it working for a trip to San Francisco where it wouldn't be as big of an inconvenience to not have a car. But it's not like we would be going to San Francisco every year.

Ultimately, this project is for the LA/SF residents. As someone else stated, it should run along the I-5. Plenty of room and shorter route. Don't have to make all the pit stops at the central valley cities. Maybe make a stop on the I-5 near Bakersfield since the 5 is only about 10 miles west of Bakersfield.

[eureka1]

To whoever pointed out that fossil fuels will still be necessary with rail you are correct. But rail is MANY times more efficient. Those CSX commercials are factual.

[nslander]

Originally Posted by jkbatca

So specifically, what did he say which was wrong? Please provide legitimate sources to back up your assertions.

You cited to an article, and specifically to a paragraph, which states:

"Construction of California's high-speed rail network is supposed to start in just six months, but the state hasn't acquired a single acre along the route and faces what "officials are calling a challenging schedule to assemble hundreds of parcels needed in the Central Valley."

To which I responded that not surprising, considering the bond release vote was only last August. I even cited an historical example that explains the political motivation behind deferred purchase. Its a tight schedule. It is a challenge. The sky is blue.

Again, the opposition has lost at the ballot box, at the legislative level, and in the courts.
My question to you is: why would you so eagerly run with this most recent yet mundane anti-rail talking point (which amounts to needles hyper-ventilation) if you were interested in a honest discussion of the project on its own merits?