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You all don't know what is true hard work that is why you all are failing.
True. When I was a kid most had paper routes for money. When I got out of HS I had to get a job as we were poor, starting with being a "box boy" and went up from there. I have done all sorts of things and learned from every place I worked including the ones I got fired from. Now I own a very nice business and will have a decent retirement. Never went to college and yet for many years my income was in the top 2% or above. Hard work is essential and going to college, even if you get a degree, is absolutely no guarantee of anything.
Just curious as to what age your parents are. Are they as pessimistic about their physical and economic future as you are about yours?
When did I say I was pessimistic about my physical and economic future? I'm doing fine, but I'm not talking about myself....I'm not even talking about my generation...instead I'm talking about the Millennials as a whole.
In any case, my parents are in their mid/late 60's and they aren't pessimistic about either. They both have relatively plush pensions and benefited from the run-up in real estate in California and they have both, relative to the average American, had a healthier lifestyle.....but still their health is declining. I have tried, without success, to get them to improve their lifestyle but they are in denial about it and still have this sense that they are "young". I find that this attitude is pretty common, hence why so many think they are going to work into their 70's.
True. When I was a kid most had paper routes for money. When I got out of HS I had to get a job as we were poor, starting with being a "box boy" and went up from there. I have done all sorts of things and learned from every place I worked including the ones I got fired from. Now I own a very nice business and will have a decent retirement. Never went to college and yet for many years my income was in the top 2% or above. Hard work is essential and going to college, even if you get a degree, is absolutely no guarantee of anything.
Most kids couldn't have paper routes even in principle, but why is working as a kid a good thing? I had a paper route when I was a kid for years, it taught me nothing and just distracted from what was actually important.
In any case, hard work is by no means essential. Being born into the right family, being very intelligent, etc will all get you further than "hard work".
Most kids couldn't have paper routes even in principle, but why is working as a kid a good thing? I had a paper route when I was a kid for years, it taught me nothing and just distracted from what was actually important.
In any case, hard work is by no means essential. Being born into the right family, being very intelligent, etc will all get you further than "hard work".
Working as a child is a good thing because it is one way to teach a child responsibility. Children don't learn responsibility until they have something to be responsible for. Whether it's a paper route, mowing lawns, or working as a bagger in a grocery store, there is a lot to be gained by letting that child know the world will not cater to them and they must learn to do something, in order to fit into society. The work doesn't have to be hard but it must be something that instills values like responsibility, accountability and a sense of achievement in them. Just because you didn't learn anything, doesn't mean it's pointless to do so.
And being born into the right family? Don't you mean a wealthy family? Having money only means you can afford to pay your way in life. It doesn't mean you are guaranteed happiness.
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Originally Posted by user_id
I find that this attitude is pretty common, hence why so many think they are going to work into their 70's.
For many, it's not an option. It's been discussed before how this last recession really hurt a number of older Americans. Those who planned on retiring, no longer are. They are planning to work into their 70's, or as long possible and if the job they do will allow it. There are still millions of people over the age of 65 that are still working.
It's important to remember that, while your parents are in one situation, a great number of older Americans aren't and must do what they need to do, in order to keep their home, pay their bills and won't end up losing everything.
My father worked until he turned 62. He could have worked longer, if necessary but he and my mother had their home paid for, they crunched the numbers and knew they could live a comfortable (not wealthy) lifestyle at that time. They lived well into their 90's and enjoyed the majority of them. It wasn't until they reached their mid 80's when health problems arose.
That's just one example but for me to say that all people in that age range should live the same way is stupid. Everyone has different issues but those who are still relatively healthy, enjoy working and want to, should be able to do it, as long as they wish.
Working as a child is a good thing because it is one way to teach a child responsibility. Children don't learn responsibility until they have something to be responsible for.
I would agree that its "one way to teach a child responsibility", but I don't think its by any means the best way because it distracts from what is more important.
Working/middle class folks often deride the choices of the higher classes to focus on their kids education,etc rather than work, yet the kids of higher class families do dramatically better than kids from working-class folks. Admittedly I thought this way until I was surrounded by upper-middle/upper class folks, but today I see it as an ethic that keeps working-class kids working-class.
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Originally Posted by HereOnMars
And being born into the right family? Don't you mean a wealthy family? Having money only means you can afford to pay your way in life. It doesn't mean you are guaranteed happiness.
No, its more about knowledge than it is about wealth. For example, academics tend not to be wealthy yet their kids usually do just as well as similarly educated, but more wealthy, families. But more often than not, knowledge and wealth go hand and hand.
Nothing guarantees happiness, but not having to worry about money certainly makes happiness easier.
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Originally Posted by HereOnMars
They are planning to work into their 70's, or as long possible and if the job they do will allow it. There are still millions of people over the age of 65 that are still working.
Yes, I realize that there are many people that poorly planned their retirements and are, as a result, planning to work "into their 70's" but what I'm suggesting is that their health, or rather lack of health, is going to get in the way of working that long.
I've never suggested anything about all boomers, instead I'm making statistical generalizations. When I say that the boomers will find that their health starts to rapidly decline once they hit their 60's, I mean that this is what is most likely to occur. Most people know smokers that have lived into their 80's, yet smoking dramatically increases your risk of getting cancer, etc. Some people just get lucky and you can't derive anything useful from these cases.
Most kids couldn't have paper routes even in principle, but why is working as a kid a good thing? I had a paper route when I was a kid for years, it taught me nothing and just distracted from what was actually important.
In any case, hard work is by no means essential. Being born into the right family, being very intelligent, etc will all get you further than "hard work".
Working as a kid with something like a paper route, which is non existent now, taught responsibility among other work ethics. Just as yard work at home and for others did. Few will be born into the right family and even then no guarantee you will benefit in the future, work ethics will benefit you. Intelligence is great, but again no guarantee if you are lazy and think because you are smart people will hire you at an easy job. None will get you farther than hard work, unless you are very stupid, just look at the children of wealthy people who are dying from drug overdoses.
Do many do well, yes especially if they ... work hard not just spend the family fortune. If you learned nothing as a kid with a paper route, then you did waste your time and should have let someone else take it, who would appreciate it. As a kid there are few more important things other than say; doing your homework, learning something like a musical instrument, playing with a high degree of social interaction (Not glued to a computer or TV screen), etc.
The vast majority of Baby Boomers, at least those born in the early years of that generation, did not get what they have by playing. I had no rich parents as my father died when I was 11, my mother worked for $1.00 dollar an hour at Goodwill, as she was legally blind, in the 1960's. As to intelligence I learned from every job I had and took what I learned and applied it with the next employer and then in the businesses I started. Graduated with a C+ average from HS school and went to work sharing what I made with my mother and just learned to work hard and smart. If I can anyone can, now as to will they or just feel life owes them all the goodies with no work, well ..... I see many who feel that way.
Intelligent is as intelligent does and stupid is as stupid does. Today a lot of stupid people exist. I know of no one who wants a job and is willing to work hard, who does not have one. I know lots who are picky or lazy who are not working.
I would agree that its "one way to teach a child responsibility", but I don't think its by any means the best way because it distracts from what is more important.
If you don't mind me asking, what (in your opinion) is the best way and from what does it detract?
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Working/middle class folks often deride the choices of the higher classes to focus on their kids education,etc rather than work, yet the kids of higher class families do dramatically better than kids from working-class folks. Admittedly I thought this way until I was surrounded by upper-middle/upper class folks, but today I see it as an ethic that keeps working-class kids working-class.
I realize that a good number of middle class wish to be wealthy - or at the very least, be a little more well off, financially - but do you honestly believe that higher class (I never liked using that term) families do better in school? I really hate using the following group as an example but they are the more visible in society . . . politicians. Do you know how many of these individuals came from middle-income families? Moreover, do you know how many came from families who weren't even considered middle-income? As an example (and not the only one) Sonia Sotomayor. From very humble beginnings. Raised by a single mother, father died when she was nine years old. Or, Joe Biden. Came from a family that, at one time, had money but due to financial disasters, ended up living like most Americans. His father had difficulty finding work and ended up selling cars.
Both these are only two examples of people who grew up in middle-class families and went on to be quite successful.
I have a couple of cousins paid every dime of their childrens' college educations and two out of the three spent the majority of their time, partying and drinking. It took one of them an extra year to graduate because his grades were so low. None of these children ever had to life a finger at home. They didn't have to work to have extra money. Their parents gave them money, any time they wanted it. They came from a pretty well-to-do family, yet haven't fared so well in life. Sure, they have a college degree and came from a family with money but that's just an example of how it doesn't always work out.
Now, I'm not saying that all families are like this. That would be unfair to those who do come from a wealthy family. The point I'm trying to make is that, sometimes, youngsters who come from wealthy families, and who are given everything they desire without ever working for it, lose more in the long run. They don't cultivate the strength inside them to achieve something on their own. They don't ever reach their full potential as described in Maslow's hierarchy of needs.
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No, its more about knowledge than it is about wealth. For example, academics tend not to be wealthy yet their kids usually do just as well as similarly educated, but more wealthy, families. But more often than not, knowledge and wealth go hand and hand.
I believe there has to be knowledge of something (whatever that may be) in order to succeed and prosper but there are a great number of wealthy and successful people who achieved what they did by hard work, dedication and long hours. Have you ever watched Undercover Boss? Many of these CEO's talk about how they became wealthy. Rarely, did it have anything to do with a degree they received from a university.
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Nothing guarantees happiness, but not having to worry about money certainly makes happiness easier.
Of course. I don't there is a person alive that won't agree with you on that. Having money helps you sleep a little better at night. It's always a comfort to know you can pay your bills and maybe take a vacation, once a year. However, there are so many other troubles that plague people, money cannot solve those problems.
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Yes, I realize that there are many people that poorly planned their retirements and are, as a result, planning to work "into their 70's" but what I'm suggesting is that their health, or rather lack of health, is going to get in the way of working that long.
You've mentioned that term "poorly planned their retirement" before and it's simply not true. Oh sure, some people never think about tomorrow and put money away for that day but a number of people simply don't have an income large enough that allows them to do that. Death, divorce, job loss, unexpected illness (whether it's the bread winner or a child) happen in life and sometimes the money that's been saved must be used to help people through these times.
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I've never suggested anything about all boomers, instead I'm making statistical generalizations. When I say that the boomers will find that their health starts to rapidly decline once they hit their 60's, I mean that this is what is most likely to occur. Most people know smokers that have lived into their 80's, yet smoking dramatically increases your risk of getting cancer, etc. Some people just get lucky and you can't derive anything useful from these cases.
Actually, the effects of aging are experienced more in a person's 70's, rather than their 60's. Of course, if a person doesn't eat right, get some sort of physical activity and keep their weight in a normal range, they will usually get sick at a younger age. Genetics play an important factor in whether someone will live a reasonably long life. I do think, however, people who practice a healthier lifestyle might have the chance of living longer but it's no guarantee.
As for the millennials and whether they are doomed. No, I don't think they are. I think they are just going to have think smarter, be quicker and have more resources in their pocket when it comes to their future. There are just way too many people on the planet and not enough jobs to go around. Being resourceful is going to be their greatest challenge and their best reward.
None will get you farther than hard work, unless you are very stupid, just look at the children of wealthy people who are dying from drug overdoses.
One's success if highly correlated with the success of your family of origin, that isn't what you'd expect if success was driven by "hard work". The caricature of spoiled rich kids, or drug addicted rich kids, is more so a working-class myth than a reality. Drug addiction is far more common in the working-class, than it is in the upper classes but being born into an upper class family doesn't absolve all social problems.
I'm glad things have worked out for you, but you may be over-estimating how much "hard-work" contributed to matters. Also, as people as myself show, being "hard working" is by no means essential to doing well in this world.
If you don't mind me asking, what (in your opinion) is the best way and from what does it detract?
Focus should be placed on academics including learning how the world works, working detracts from this simply because it takes up a lot of a kids free time. Kids need some play time, and if they are working there is little time left for out-of-school education and the school system by no means provides the appropriate sort of education unless the children are enrolled in an elite private institution (and these institutions have demands that prevent kids from working).
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Originally Posted by HereOnMars
but do you honestly believe that higher class (I never liked using that term) families do better in school? I really hate using the following group as an example but they are the more visible in society . . . politicians. Do you know how many of these individuals came from middle-income families?
Yes, children from higher class families do much better in school....that is partly why the school systems in higher class communities vastly outperform the schools in lower class communities.
Though you can find politicians from "humble beginnings", most come from higher class families though they will typically try to make their upbringing sound humble to relate to voters.
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Originally Posted by HereOnMars
I have a couple of cousins paid every dime of their childrens' college educations and two out of the three spent the majority of their time, partying and drinking. It took one of them an extra year to graduate because his grades were so low. None of these children ever had to life a finger at home.
This sounds like a middle-class family and a case of bad parenting. In any case, perhaps because of TV, people tend to think upper class families simply give their kids money regardless of what they do....the spoiled rich kid imagine. But, outside of cases of bad parenting, that isn't what happens...the kids are expected to perform. In fact, the financing they are providing for their kids gives them a greater incentive to pay attention to what they are doing. They want to see they are getting a good return on their investment.
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Originally Posted by HereOnMars
Have you ever watched Undercover Boss? Many of these CEO's talk about how they became wealthy. Rarely, did it have anything to do with a degree they received from a university.
No, I really don't watch TV shows and I always find it strange when people use TV shows to demonstrate something. Mainstream TV is indented to appeal to mainstream audiences, a show that highlighted well educated, etc business folks wouldn't be popular.
If you look at the educations of CEO's of large businesses, not only are they all well-educated, but the vast majority went to top universities. So while you do find some CEO's that lack formal education or came from "humble beginnings", this is the exception not the rule.
As for retirement planning, I stick with what I said. The vast majority of the time, when someone can't retire when they get into their 60's its because they poorly planned for retirement. For aging, I'm talking about what is going to happen in the future not what has happened with previous generations. Since things have gotten progressively worse over the last 50~60 years, you can't use previous generations as a model for the boomers and the oldest boomers (the ones in their 60's today) are likely to fair the best. But the health issue isn't unique to boomers, in fact, younger generations are even worse. In terms of food, the boomer lead destruction of traditional culture included the destruction of home cooked meals and replaced it with fast-food and processed foods. So while the boomers were typically raised on home-cooked meals, younger generations were raised on fast-food and processed convenient foods. As such, the health of younger generations is going to be truly grim.
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Originally Posted by HereOnMars
There are just way too many people on the planet and not enough jobs to go around. Being resourceful is going to be their greatest challenge and their best reward.
Making younger generations compete with foreign labor is a choice, a choice that obviously benefits the capitalist and hurts the working/middle class members of the younger generations.
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