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One's success if highly correlated with the success of your family of origin, that isn't what you'd expect if success was driven by "hard work". The caricature of spoiled rich kids, or drug addicted rich kids, is more so a working-class myth than a reality. Drug addiction is far more common in the working-class, than it is in the upper classes but being born into an upper class family doesn't absolve all social problems.
I'm glad things have worked out for you, but you may be over-estimating how much "hard-work" contributed to matters. Also, as people as myself show, being "hard working" is by no means essential to doing well in this world.
Hi,
I agree it is less a rich class thing, at least visibly, though I have a friend who runs a treatment center and ONLY the Rich go there and she is constantly busy. You just don't hear about it as they don't need to steal to get the money for the drugs. Most arrests are covered up or get minimal exposure unless you are famous, not just rich.
Hard working does not simply mean physical work. It means much more and no Company I know really wants an employee who doesn't work hard at their task.
The point User was making about education is true, but a paper route will not cut into a child's education as it used to occur when they were in Grade School or Middle School at the latest. Today's paper routes are far different. It does teach responsibiloity which is necessary to benefit from any level of education they may obtain,so just being sent to College as an example, is no guarantee of success later.
Making younger generations compete with foreign labor is a choice, a choice that obviously benefits the capitalist and hurts the working/middle class members of the younger generations.
Lets look at it another way, this is a global economy, not just an American One we are involved with.
How about foreign workers, having to compete with American labor. When the citizens of their country open manufacturing plants, etc., in the U.S. Examples. Siemens which used to be in the Silicon Valley but moved a large operation to Florida, being driven out of California by costs of doing business and taxes.
How about Toyota, and other auto plants in U.S. See list of all auto models made in U.S. (77), and note how many are actually foreign owned brands.
And this list can go on and on. High priced goods can be made in the U.S. at a reasonable cost. It is the cheap hand labor jobs that are done in other countries more economically.
Lets consider what country owns American leading brands such as Alka-Seltzer--Vaseline--7-11 markets--Tretorn, Puma and Adidas--Budweiser Beer--CITGO--Good Humor--French's Mustard--Frigidaire--Church's Chicken--Good Humor, Breyers, Klondike Bar and Popsicle all owned by Lipton's Tea--Ben and Jerry's--Gerber Baby Foods--Purina--Trader Joe's--Holiday Inn--Dial Soap--Shell Oil--T Mobile--Firestone Tire--The Indiana Toll Road--The Chicago Skyway (toll road)--Toll House Cookies--John Hancock Life Insurance Company. And that just touches a small portion of what American Industry is foreign owned.
And there are U.S. companies that are mostly owned by Foreign Companies such as Chrysler mostly owned by Fiat. Of course that sale was done by the Obama Administration when they took over the company.
Foreign companies control much of our ports, such as Port of Los Angeles.
American industry oversees investment, is just slightly behind foreign investment in U.S.
Sure we send some jobs overseas, but other companies send jobs to the U.S. We often send low paid type of jobs overseas, and the ones sent to us are often high paid jobs.
If they pulled back all production of goods made in other countries by or for American Companies, and sent out of the country all production of goods made in the U.S. for foreign companies, we would see a huge (and I do mean huge) jump in unemployment and the country would be driven into a depression not just a recession. Many of these products would no longer be made as the companies could not make them at a price Americans would pay for them due to our higher labor costs on labor intensive cheap goods so bringing back those plants would never happen, and they would just go out of business.
Just think the entertainment industry including Hollywood would mostly move overseas if that happened.
Lets look at it another way, this is a global economy, not just an American One we are involved with.
How about foreign workers, having to compete with American labor. When the citizens of their country open manufacturing plants, etc., in the U.S. Examples. Siemens which used to be in the Silicon Valley but moved a large operation to Florida, being driven out of California by costs of doing business and taxes.
How about Toyota, and other auto plants in U.S. See list of all auto models made in U.S. (77), and note how many are actually foreign owned brands.
And this list can go on and on. High priced goods can be made in the U.S. at a reasonable cost. It is the cheap hand labor jobs that are done in other countries more economically.
Lets consider what country owns American leading brands such as Alka-Seltzer--Vaseline--7-11 markets--Tretorn, Puma and Adidas--Budweiser Beer--CITGO--Good Humor--French's Mustard--Frigidaire--Church's Chicken--Good Humor, Breyers, Klondike Bar and Popsicle all owned by Lipton's Tea--Ben and Jerry's--Gerber Baby Foods--Purina--Trader Joe's--Holiday Inn--Dial Soap--Shell Oil--T Mobile--Firestone Tire--The Indiana Toll Road--The Chicago Skyway (toll road)--Toll House Cookies--John Hancock Life Insurance Company. And that just touches a small portion of what American Industry is foreign owned.
And there are U.S. companies that are mostly owned by Foreign Companies such as Chrysler mostly owned by Fiat. Of course that sale was done by the Obama Administration when they took over the company.
Foreign companies control much of our ports, such as Port of Los Angeles.
American industry oversees investment, is just slightly behind foreign investment in U.S.
Sure we send some jobs overseas, but other companies send jobs to the U.S. We often send low paid type of jobs overseas, and the ones sent to us are often high paid jobs.
If they pulled back all production of goods made in other countries by or for American Companies, and sent out of the country all production of goods made in the U.S. for foreign companies, we would see a huge (and I do mean huge) jump in unemployment and the country would be driven into a depression not just a recession. Many of these products would no longer be made as the companies could not make them at a price Americans would pay for them due to our higher labor costs on labor intensive cheap goods so bringing back those plants would never happen, and they would just go out of business.
Just think the entertainment industry including Hollywood would mostly move overseas if that happened.
This is your basic problem. You only look at part of the picture, not the whole picture.
Shhhhh they want to think it is all the fault of the American Capitalists. They want it to be the case that the overseas jobs take jobs away from Americans, (well except those in the AG industry who KNOW Americans will not pick ____ Fill in the space) and we get nothing in return except cheap goods.
Wonder why Toyota doesn't make cars and trucks in China to ship here, rather than make them in the USA? It ain't shipping costs. and it isn't labor costs either. I know of several US Companies that are now bringing the MFG back home due to poor quality, intellectual property theft, not meeting specs while claiming to do so,, and on and on and on and ... My only real gripe is $40.00 shirts made in Bangladesh for $0.50. The money saved is not being passed on to the US consumer, who is stupid enough to buy based on Logo's, cute sayings and expensive advertising.
Focus should be placed on academics including learning how the world works, working detracts from this simply because it takes up a lot of a kids free time. Kids need some play time, and if they are working there is little time left for out-of-school education and the school system by no means provides the appropriate sort of education unless the children are enrolled in an elite private institution (and these institutions have demands that prevent kids from working).
I see. Yes. It's very important for kid to have free play time. Time to sit on his behind and stare at a computer screen, socialize with his friends on spacebook and wile away the hours gaming. I wouldn't condone a ten-year-old working at a job. But there's nothing wrong with a sixteen-year-old working a few hours a day, at something that will build their self-confidence and help them assimilate to society.
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Yes, children from higher class families do much better in school....that is partly why the school systems in higher class communities vastly outperform the schools in lower class communities.
I haven't seen any statistics that prove that but will concede that you are entitled to have your opinion on it.
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Though you can find politicians from "humble beginnings", most come from higher class families though they will typically try to make their upbringing sound humble to relate to voters.
I think your reaching on this one. These people don't make up things like that to gain votes. That's an insult to American voters. Besides, it's too easy to debunk their claims which would cast them in an even worse light. You just can't admit that many successful people didn't start out with a silver spoon in their mouth.
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This sounds like a middle-class family and a case of bad parenting. In any case, perhaps because of TV, people tend to think upper class families simply give their kids money regardless of what they do....the spoiled rich kid imagine. But, outside of cases of bad parenting, that isn't what happens...the kids are expected to perform. In fact, the financing they are providing for their kids gives them a greater incentive to pay attention to what they are doing. They want to see they are getting a good return on their investment
No, they aren't middle-class. They aren't uber wealthy, either. I couldn't say for sure, however, based on their former employers, I'd say they did okay. Actually, better than okay. They just indulged their children and never pushed very hard. The kids got it in their head, they were better than most people because they came from a family with money. Fortunately, they're all adults and have learned many a lesson about the value of money and how difficult it is to make it, unless you work at it. They may not be the majority but they are just one example of what happens when you indulge your child without making them responsible for something. I don't hold anything against them for this. They're family. I still love 'em.
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No, I really don't watch TV shows and I always find it strange when people use TV shows to demonstrate something. Mainstream TV is indented to appeal to mainstream audiences, a show that highlighted well educated, etc business folks wouldn't be popular.
If you look at the educations of CEO's of large businesses, not only are they all well-educated, but the vast majority went to top universities. So while you do find some CEO's that lack formal education or came from "humble beginnings", this is the exception not the rule.
The examples I gave you also went to major universities. I didn't say they didn't. What I did say is that they came from families that weren't wealthy. I'm not here to argue with you. I simply stated a few facts that don't add up to your idea that, in order to succeed in life, you have to come from $$$.
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As for retirement planning, I stick with what I said. The vast majority of the time, when someone can't retire when they get into their 60's its because they poorly planned for retirement. For aging, I'm talking about what is going to happen in the future not what has happened with previous generations. Since things have gotten progressively worse over the last 50~60 years, you can't use previous generations as a model for the boomers and the oldest boomers (the ones in their 60's today) are likely to fair the best. But the health issue isn't unique to boomers, in fact, younger generations are even worse. In terms of food, the boomer lead destruction of traditional culture included the destruction of home cooked meals and replaced it with fast-food and processed foods. So while the boomers were typically raised on home-cooked meals, younger generations were raised on fast-food and processed convenient foods. As such, the health of younger generations is going to be truly grim.
Of course, stick with what you said. Doesn't make it true just because you say so. Everyone has difference experiences in life. I know that not all can plan for their retirement, as you call it. I've seen it. But that doesn't make me the expert. It just means I don't hold an opinion that people who reach the age of 60 and have little money for their golden years is at fault for it. You have to know everyone's circumstances for make an informed conclusion. Still, it's okay for you to think what you like.
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Making younger generations compete with foreign labor is a choice, a choice that obviously benefits the capitalist and hurts the working/middle class members of the younger generations.
Not sure what you mean by this because the fact is, there are more people now in the U.S. and fewer jobs. It has absolutely nothing to do with benefitting the capitalist. I said it before. If you want to get a glimpse of just how many people are seeking jobs, take a look at every college in the country and the graduating class in each of those. Count those students up and you'll get a pretty good idea of just how many young people are joining the job market. It's astounding.
It's been an interesting discussion. Thanks
Last edited by JGC97; 08-10-2013 at 09:16 PM..
Reason: typo
Most kids couldn't have paper routes even in principle, but why is working as a kid a good thing? I had a paper route when I was a kid for years, it taught me nothing and just distracted from what was actually important.
In any case, hard work is by no means essential. Being born into the right family, being very intelligent, etc will all get you further than "hard work".
My parents were always farming me out... I mean at age 8.
I would pull weeds, mow lawns with a push mower, paint fences... at age 12 I was paying into social security and had to get a work permit from the school district.
My parents believed it was a good thing to know where a dollar comes from and how to earn it... they believed it would help me focus on school/career...
Worked my way through engineering school and remaining student debt was gone within a year of graduation.
By the way... I was able to keep, as in put the money I earned mowing lawns and such in the bank...
When I had a real job at age 12 it paid $50 a week... $20 for mom, $20 in the bank, $4 and change witholding and the $5 and change left was all mine and used it to buy a burger for lunch.
Nothing made my parents prouder when employers said what a good worker I was... guess it was just my family's values.
Lets look at it another way, this is a global economy, not just an American One we are involved with.
This isn't looking at it another way, to what degree the US involves itself with the "global economy" is a choice. But the US can trade with foreign countries without selling-out its work-force, but the capitalist benefits when US labor competes with cheaper labor in other countries...this keeps domestic labor costs down.
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Originally Posted by expatCA
Shhhhh they want to think it is all the fault of the American Capitalists. They want it to be the case that the overseas jobs take jobs away from Americans, (well except those in the AG industry who KNOW Americans will not pick ____ Fill in the space) and we get nothing in return except cheap goods.
Who is "they"? I've never claimed that "overseas jobs" take jobs away from Americans, instead I've said that forcing American workers to comlete with workers in other countries, in particular low wage countries, benefits the capitalist and hurts American workers.
I see. Yes. It's very important for kid to have free play time. Time to sit on his behind and stare at a computer screen, socialize with his friends on spacebook and wile away the hours gaming.
You are being sarcastic, but yes its important for kids to have some free time. They need to socialize, they need to do things on their own terms and they need to spend time with family.
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Originally Posted by HereOnMars
I think your reaching on this one. These people don't make up things like that to gain votes. That's an insult to American voters. Besides, it's too easy to debunk their claims which would cast them in an even worse light. You just can't admit that many successful people didn't start out with a silver spoon in their mouth.
I have no problem admitting that some successful people came from "humble beginnings", indeed, I did such that in the comment you're quoting! What I disagree with is that this represents the norm. As for politicians, you think politicians don't make things up? But my point here wasn't that politicians were out-right lying, instead that they often omit details and exaggerate to relate better with voters.
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Originally Posted by HereOnMars
The examples I gave you also went to major universities. I didn't say they didn't. What I did say is that they came from families that weren't wealthy. I'm not here to argue with you. I simply stated a few facts that don't add up to your idea that, in order to succeed in life, you have to come from $$$.
Firstly, I've been speaking in terms of social class not $$$. Secondly, I've never suggested that you need to come from a higher class family to succeed, instead I said that success ishighly correlated with coming from a higher class family.
But, I've been vague about what I mean by "success", when I say "success" I don't mean obtaining a working or middle-class job. It would be better to say that one's social class is highly correlated with the social class of their family.
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Originally Posted by HereOnMars
Not sure what you mean by this because the fact is, there are more people now in the U.S. and fewer jobs. It has absolutely nothing to do with benefitting the capitalist.
Of course it does, the capitalist is utterly dependent on the willingness of labor to submit to him. For the capitalist, the weaker the labor market the better, when the labor market is weak workers don't protest much, wages are depressed, etc.
Of course it does, the capitalist is utterly dependent on the willingness of labor to submit to him. For the capitalist, the weaker the labor market the better, when the labor market is weak workers don't protest much, wages are depressed, etc.
Wrong. For the capitalist to prosper, they need a strong labor market, where people are making money and can afford to buy their products, and services. A weak market, with depressed wages, means a poor economy, and business slows down.
Wrong. For the capitalist to prosper, they need a strong labor market, where people are making money and can afford to buy their products, and services. A weak market, with depressed wages, means a poor economy, and business slows down.
They just don't get it. They want sooo badly to balme the Capitalist business owner they can't accept that such owners WANT a prosperous workforce.
My parents were always farming me out... I mean at age 8.
I would pull weeds, mow lawns with a push mower, paint fences... at age 12 I was paying into social security and had to get a work permit from the school district.
My parents believed it was a good thing to know where a dollar comes from and how to earn it... they believed it would help me focus on school/career...
Worked my way through engineering school and remaining student debt was gone within a year of graduation.
By the way... I was able to keep, as in put the money I earned mowing lawns and such in the bank...
When I had a real job at age 12 it paid $50 a week... $20 for mom, $20 in the bank, $4 and change witholding and the $5 and change left was all mine and used it to buy a burger for lunch.
Nothing made my parents prouder when employers said what a good worker I was... guess it was just my family's values.
Good for them and good for you. IF only there were more parents with your parents values and willingness to help you learn some important values, instead of buying their kids every new gadget that comes along so they look like good parents.
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