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Property Tax is only one part of the California Tax System. California also has major Sales and Income Taxes as well as hundreds of other fees and taxes... like higher motor vehicle fees and special assessments for everything from public transportation to lead paint abatement.
Once again, Ultrarunner, you provide a well thought-out and detailed reply... I truly enjoy your contributions in this forum.
But... (there's always a 'but' after a compliment, don'tcha know )
Those other taxes you mentioned are tiered... the higher the value, the more you pay. The property tax system is a reverse tier... the longer you stay the less you pay (relative to your property's value).
Honestly, I don't want to sound like an insensitive a-hole, or a whiner on a crusade... mostly I'm just wondering aloud how a better system could be implemented to even things out a bit, instead of putting the majority of the burden on those unlucky enough to get in after the gettin' was good.
I always appreciate your input because there many views on every important issue.
I'm not sure that I, meaning me, would use the term fixed income. I think pension or living on Social Security would better describe the people I'm thinking of and they would be severely impacted by a 4 to 6 fold property tax increase. The result is similar to that of Gentrification, where basically the old time, low income residents are driven out by people with money.
These senior homeowners have no way to increase their future earning potential... they basically have to make do with what they have as opposed to someone in their prime with years of earning potential ahead or even a two income household.
As far as schools, my only qualification to comment on this subject is that my father taught public High School in California and I've heard his opinion on the subject. Prop 13 was not even on his list of reasons the schools are in trouble today.
Not to oversimplify, but my father told me when he stated teaching, schools concentrated on the 3 R's... Reading, Writing and Arithmetic. Over the years, the entire education system has moved away from basic education.
Teachers today need to be public health nurses, multilingual, deal with domestic violence, weapons and drugs that did not even exist a few years ago. When he started, teachers would never discuss things like HIV, Drug Abuse and the like... this was not the purview of teachers. Teenagers did not bring their babies to class.
Children did not go to school on an empty stomach or a can of soda for breakfast. There was no free school lunch program and teachers could always count on the parents (Plural) for support with behavioral problems. Dad had some classes with 40 students, much higher than the mandated 20 to 25 of today. He said it is a crime that every year the amount of money the district allocates per student increases and the amount that actually reaches the class room decreases.
Parents used to be very involved with the school. PTA meetings averaged 90% attendance, both parents would attend parent teacher nights and something like reciting the Pledge of Allegiance would never have resulted in a Supreme Court Case, not to mention the tax dollars spent on lawyers instead of Students. A second language was something taught to college bound seniors. The basic curriculum was always taught in English.
I do agree that good schools make desirable neighborhoods and bad schools are often a top reason for moving... especially where I live.
No, Dad did not view proposition 13 as a threat and I'm sure that formed the basis for my opinion.
Last edited by Ultrarunner; 06-13-2007 at 03:37 AM..
Reason: spelling
I always appreciate your input because there many views on every important issue.
I'm not sure that I, meaning me, would use the term fixed income. I think pension or living on Social Security would better describe the people I'm thinking of and they would be severely impacted by a 4 to 6 fold property tax increase. The result is similar to that of Gentrification, where basically the old time, low income residents are driven out by people with money.
These senior homeowners have no way to increase their future earning potential... they basically have to make do with what they have as opposed to someone in their prime with years of earning potential ahead or even a two income household.
As far as schools, my only qualification to comment on this subject is that my father taught public High School in California and I've heard his opinion on the subject. Prop 13 was not even on his list of reasons the schools are in trouble today.
Not to oversimplify, but my father told me when he stated teaching, schools concentrated on the 3 R's... Reading, Writing and Arithmetic. Over the years, the entire education system has moved away from basic education.
Teachers today need to be public health nurses, multilingual, deal with domestic violence, weapons and drugs that did not even exist a few years ago. When he started, teachers would never discuss things like HIV, Drug Abuse and the like... this was not the purview of teachers. Teenagers did not bring their babies to class.
Children did not go to school on an empty stomach or a can of soda for breakfast. There was no free school lunch program and teachers could always count on the parents (Plural) for support with behavioral problems. Dad had some classes with 40 students, much higher than the mandated 20 to 25 of today. He said it is a crime that every year the amount of money the district allocates per student increases and the amount that actually reaches the class room decreases.
Parents used to be very involved with the school. PTA meetings averaged 90% attendance, both parents would attend parent teacher nights and something like reciting the Pledge of Allegiance would never have resulted in a Supreme Court Case, not to mention the tax dollars spent on lawyers instead of Students. A second language was something taught to college bound seniors. The basic curriculum was always taught in English.
I do agree that good schools make desirable neighborhoods and bad schools are often a top reason for moving... especially where I live.
No, Dad did not view proposition 13 as a threat and I'm sure that formed the basis for my opinion.
It was not a good thing when Calif.got away from reading,writing and arethmitic.
My kids suffered through the new ways of reading and math back in the early and mid 90's.Reading was not about vowels and sounding out but rather word recognition.This did not always work and as a parent knowing that i learned to read by sounding words out they did not.Math for one of my children, they then had a new way of teaching it more in a way of a problem solving teaching aproach. It was called Arithmetwists.This paticular teacher ( she had her for 4th and 5th grade) was so sold on this new way that she never did combine the "new math" and "old math" the way other teachers were teaching it. No multipication drills etc.
Looking back at it of course i should have been more proactive in voicing my concern over another way the schools were trying something new out.
Public schools in Calif. have gone down hill for numerous reasons and i would think twice about sending my child ( if i had to do it over again!!) throught it.
First post here. Hi. Please allow me to give a different perspective. I have to say some of what you're all saying has me a bit concerned. See, we (my wife and I), are at the opposite end of this discussion - we're buying a home IN California. Coming from NY state so the taxes and energy costs don't have us overwhelmed. Our kids are grown and on their own so education, etc. isn't a major concern either. We've spent time vacationing, visiting friends and relatives, etc. exploring the area between San Diego and Napa. Just driving around is breathtakingly beautiful, I don't know how you do it without running off the road. And while NYS has much beauty in it's own right, we are just plain tired of the winters, and the cloudy, hot, humid days of summer. We can't wait to be able to be outdoors more and take advantage of all there is to do in California. We've learned a lot just reading through this forum - there is nothing like people's experiences and opinions, both pro and con, to help us understand just what we're getting into. For that I am thankful for all of you.
Actually, living in California, I am sick and tired of paying to support people who feel they should be supported by the rest of us and should be supported in a style those of us who work wish we could afford.
People who have far more children than they can support.
People who have children out of wedlock that they cannot support.
People who drop out of school and can't support themselves.
People who refuse to learn English and are infuriated when they can't advance beyond manual labor into the skilled trades or the professions.
I certainly do NOT live in a $3 million dollar home; but I am tired of seeing the Escalade's driven by the neighbor who pays for the groceries with food stamps.
semsjm, you will absolutely love it here. Many of your sentiments match ours too, and we moved to greater Sacramento last year. It is a blast, and you will never be bored, no matter where you select to move.
I understand the folks who want to leave and respect their sentiments too, but there is a LOT to love about California for those of us fortunate enough to live there comfortably.
Ultrarunner,
You make many fine points, and I can't say that I disagree, except on the source of school funding not being the problem.
The way I see it, is that L.A. County is probably one of the richest counties in the nation, yet has some of the lowest-performing schools in the nation. Now if it were instead funded from property taxes, rather than waiting for their allotment from the state, it would probably also have the richest schools in the nation. It's much easier to deal with the problems you mentioned when you have the funding to do so.
Instead, breadth classes are the ones continually being cut, and those are the ones that give students a well-rounded education. When I was attending college, over half of my classes were in the breadth area.
I also agree that parents used to be more involved, but a lot of that has to do more with outside obligations than parents truly "not caring" about their child's education. It's tough too make it to PTA meetings or back-to-school nights when you have to work two jobs just to make it in California. However, my wife and I have been really lucky to have the time available to be involved in both of our children's education, and we make the most of it.
I also think that the "No Child Left Behind" act has also harmed schools more than it has helped. Now teachers are "teaching to the test" more than concentrating on curriculum's that educate the children better, and in order to keep all the kids on equal footing academic-wise, they dumb-down a lot of things so that the slower kids can keep up.
The other thing that bothers me is that schools focus more on self-esteem issues than academic issues, so we end up with a bunch of ignorant kids that feel good about themselves... ain't that beautiful.
For instance, my daughter will be in the 8th grade next year, and has never had any sort of instruction in longhand handwriting... whatever she knows about writing in cursive she has taught herself. When she was in the 1st grade, she was the top speller in her class, but in the second grade she had a teacher who decided that he was going to teach "phonics" instead of whole-language English, and that did more harm than good (the teacher told us how "great" this system is when we went to back-to-school night). She still has a hard time with visualizing words 5 years later.
This same teacher eventually moved down to teaching first grade, and my son was assigned to him several years later. After seeing what his instruction had done to our daughter's academic ability, we quickly had him transferred to another teacher's classroom. We warned his best-friend's mother about the teacher, who had left her son in his class, but she didn't heed our warning. One time later in the school year, she came up to my wife and told her that she wished she had listened to us, because her son was now having a tough time academically because of these "new-fangled" teaching methods that were hurting more than helping. He even started speaking in stilted sentences because he couldn't even visualize the words to say them.
I guess I'm straying a bit from the topic, but my overall assertion is that if schools had more money to spend per-pupil, they could pay better salaries and attract better teachers. They could have better infrastructure, and would have money to fund programs to help combat the problems you mentioned. As it is now, to deal with the problems, they have to cut programs elsewhere to free up money, and all students suffer.
Otherwise, I think we're pretty much on the same page. Once again, thanks for the great post. You give me a lot to think about.
Why should someone be forced to sell their home of many years only because someone with more money buys next door and grossly overpays, there by raising the property tax of the entire neighborhood.
It does not sound fair that actions of others with money can impact your ability to keep the roof over your head and that is how the initiative called Prop 13 came into being. Rich people can afford to live anywhere they want, prop 13 protects the everyday homeowner by providing stability to property taxes.
Property reassessment in this state is triggered by a change of ownership or by improvements made.
Property is only worth what someone is willing and able to pay for it at a given time. Each property is unique for purposes of the law and anything other than a bona fide sale is only an OPINION of value. I would never want to go back to the pre Prop 13 system where you are taxed based on someone's OPINION of the value of your home.
At least with Prop 13, everyone is treated the same. Base value is determined at the time of sale and property tax is limited to annual increases of 2%.
By the way, I'm one of those paying $8800 per year on the home I bought from a retired couple in their 80's. They built their home in 1957 and their last tax bill the year I bought was $1200.
It is not based on value it is based on what one paid...
It is not about a good buy or overpaying, some are stuck paying for what others use and don't pay for, such as roads, parks and schools!
MBG
It is not based on value it is based on what one paid...
It is not about a good buy or overpaying, some are stuck paying for what others use and don't pay for, such as roads, parks and schools!
MBG
Interesting point MBG... if I may, I would like to try and answer...
Roads, are supposed to be funded by the fuel tax on every gallon of over the road fuel sold in this state. Bridges are supposed to be funded by tolls charged to motorists using the bridge. The more fuel sold in the state the more money the state collects. The problem with road funding and roads is that much of the money collected for roads is diverted to public transportation projects for which they were never intended.
Parks, many of the parks I frequent are in the East Bay Regional Park System or the California State Park System and they charge entrance or day-use fees which I think is very appropriate.
Schools, are a perfect example of my line of thought. The couple in their 80's that sold me their home had one child who just turned 65 last month. This couple has more than paid far more than their "Fair" share into the system for the time their child used the system. They continued to pay for building and maintaining the system for those with children. They paid into the local system for 49 years.
Please don't become offended, but, I agree with you that we should pay for what we use and by this logic... elderly homeowners have long ago paid their "Fair" share into the system.
I agree with your statement, "Some are stuck paying for what other's use", especially adults that are childless...
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