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So what? What did you adjust? You aren't telling me anything or showing your numbers that you adjusted. I don't care about whatever meaningless "rates" and adjustments YOU have pulled up out of your own hat about any place because I can't trust them. I want to see you provide verifiable data from reliable and well known researchers with a good record, not the relentless and inaccurate ravings of somebody on an endless rant who says "trust what I say and go google it".
I saw your original response to my post before you deleted it and changed it to the above response. You were being far more honest in that whole response that you deleted than you are being now and it's because you were caught off guard. Now you're angry at yourself because it was too late for you to go back and edit and delete the glaring mistake that you made in your post that I "pulled" and quoted and you're angry at me because I noticed it and questioned it. My post was NOT incomprehensible and neither is your real intent.
In answer to your math question, yes I did hate math in school and therefore I forced myself to be even more questioning and accurate about math than I am with the written English language. Do you know what that means?
Did you hate learning language, reading and essay writing in school and now you're making up for it by flooding the board with your repetitive ranting stories and numbers about your pet peeve but you're not paying attention to what other people are saying and not contributing anything else constructive to the forum? Do you have anything constructive to say that might make you more credible? If you don't then how can anyone who is so tiresome like that be given credibility?
I've seen enough.
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AND...I will say something fundamentally constructive right now that might be of benefit for all of you whom are constantly in denial of reality. I have often noticed - albeit not with all Canadians - that whenever I DO take the time to dig up proof, I am ALWAYS wasting my time when it's proof that demonstrates the results of studies that places Canada worse than the USA for racist behavior (Which, by the way, is ALWAYS the case in the very few controlled studies that have ever been published. It NEVER fails - Canada always places worse than the USA for racist behavior and outcomes!)
It's like trying to get a fundamentalist fanatic to accept evolution or an extreme right fanatic to accept that the globe is even warming (that's a fact that's not even debatable; but some people deny it any way). The ones who are slightly more intelligent will accept the fact of global warming, but they will insist on arguing with the experts that it has nothing to do with human industrial activity!
This is what I am up against. Whenever I do pull up evidence, Canadians will explain it away because of disbelief and being in denial. They have been so conditioned to believe Americans are more racist that they just can't accept thorough studies that bring that fantasy into question. And we all know that if any study was to reveal more racist behavior or outcomes by Americans (there are no such studies out there!), Canadians would not be so skeptical or questioning. It would result in instant belief!
Any way, here's yet another piece of evidence that brings into question the Canadian fantasy that Americans are more racist than Canadians (I know it's actually the opposite!). I don't even have to guess. I already know that whatever metric you want to use, Canada will always measure unfavorably (versus the USA) for discriminatory behavior and discriminatory outcomes. I KNOW. I am just trying to eradicate everyone else's brainwashing, but it appears to be a waste of time! Either way, Canadians can't change their country for the better if they have an inferiority complex compelling them to always favorably compare themselves to the USA to make themselves feel morally superior. That is not a recipe for positive change!
This is what I am up against. Whenever I do pull up evidence, Canadians will explain it away because of disbelief and being in denial. They have been so conditioned to believe Americans are more racist that they just can't accept thorough studies that bring that fantasy into question. And we all know that if any study was to reveal more racist behavior or outcomes by Americans (there are no such studies out there!), Canadians would not be so skeptical or questioning. It would result in instant belief!
You are catching on quickly to how things work here!
Sadly this manifestation of the inferiority complex actually holds Canada back in a status-quo and leads us to have poorer innovation and therefore poorer technology, economics, and brain drain. I don't like it either.
You are catching on quickly to how things work here!
Sadly this manifestation of the inferiority complex actually holds Canada back in a status-quo and leads us to have poorer innovation and therefore poorer technology, economics, and brain drain. I don't like it either.
Excellent! AND...of course it holds Canada back! Do you actually believe most Canadians realize so?
It was not always the case, but now-a-days, the global market of immigrants is FAR, FAR more colored than white! So long as the majority of Canadians continue to gladly (though falsely) believe they are more accepting of non-whites, they will continue to under-employ these highly ambitious and productive immigrants relative to their American counterparts! Too many Canadians are too foolish to realize the immigration process is a mutually beneficial one. Rather, they falsely believe it's all about Canada being merciful and compassionate (they don't understand demographic shift theory).
Also, all of the denial you see when I bring up studies demonstrating Canada's deficiencies (relative to the USA) is just hurting Canadians. They are always grasping at straws no matter what government numbers, university studies, or anything else I bring up. They will always "grasp at straws" to invalidate everything I present.
I say...KEEP IT UP! It's not a wonder why the standard of living in the USA has shot well above Canada in recent times. The US is now accustomed to having much color in its workforce. The racial friction has been much reduced over the years and they are taking advantage of this remarkably productive immigrant resource in their public AND private workforces (much more so than Canada!).
So long as the people on these forums (and Canadians in general) remain in denial, there will be no pressure to fully utilize this powerful immigrant resource (as you say; remain in the status quo!). The US workforce utilizes it much more so due to less racist hiring practices. So you see, Canadians are "shooting themselves in the foot" and don't even realize it!
Last edited by abcxyz423; 12-27-2021 at 01:48 PM..
That's interesting considering the small black population in Canada (1.2 million). I'd like to see reliable data for that presented here but I don't want you to put yourself to any effort doing that. But I'm certainly not going to go searching for it.
I think maybe because this is just an anonymous forum where anyone can say anything that suits their mood and nobody knows if anyone is actually who they say they are or if any of their stories are in fact the truth. Remember what I said before about people not knowing who is or who isn't a troll. Nobody is prepared to take any stranger at face value just because the stranger vociferously says something repeatedly over and over and over again. People who vociferously assert something on a forum need to be the ones to present valid unassailable data and proof of what they are asserting if they expect to be believed. Just saying "I say so and you can take my word for it" multiple times is NOT good enough.
No offense intended.
You can say that again. Or not.
Kind of like a frustrated mule driver continuing to flog a downed mule over and over and over and over again when the mule was already down for the count 1,000,000 flogs ago.
So yeah, it has become tiresome. Maybe you should give yourself and everyone else a break for the holidays instead of swamping the thread every day with more of the same repetitions. I think everyone has already gotten your message.
Anyway, Merry Christmas and well wishes to you and yours.
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I think I know who you are now. You're that guy from the other OP forum a long time ago. Maybe you should stay out of this one so you don't end up reading what I have to say. I know you don't like what I have to say, so I don't want to keep beating you over the head with it. Why would you join in if you know you wouldn't like it? I won't stop because other Canadians should be made aware their country isn't as morally perfect as they like to believe it is. Most conversing with me now were not a part of that other forum.
And...happy holidays to you, too!
Look at you just making up facts. George Floyd was never charged or convicted of rape. Aggravated robbery, yes. And he served time in prison for it. But not rape. I don’t know what his previous crimes have to do with him being murdered by a police officer. You can still be murdered, even if you have criminal convictions.
If you got that wrong, why should I believe anything else you say? As far as the police killing “only 7 unarmed black men in 2020,” why does them being armed or not matter in a nation with a constitutionally protected right to bear arms. Philando Castile was armed when he was murdered by police in his car, but he certainly did not pose a threat. I’m sure that is the case in more than 7 of those killings in 2020. It’s also worth noting the word weapon. If the police shoot a man and find that he had a weapon on him, now he’s an armed man, whether or not he wielded that weapon. A weapon can be a lot of things, including things the dead man may have been carrying legally.
As for your claim that a black person’s chances of being struck by lightning are greater than their chances of being killed by police, 621 black people were killed by police so far in 2021 in America. I don’t know how many of them were unarmed, but that is not an insignificant number (source: https://www.washingtonpost.com/graph...ings-database/)
I think it would be would be much more accurate to say that a police officer in the US has a greater chance of being struck by lightning than killed by a black person. Police officer is not on the top 10 list of most dangerous jobs in America, and most police deaths are caused by traffic accidents. According to the Officer Down Memorial Page, in 2020, COVID-19 was the leading cause of death among police officers in the US. 300 total died “in the line of duty” and 148 of those deaths were from COVID. I don’t know why they counted a COVID death as being “in the line of duty,” but they did. Meanwhile, 48 officers were killed that year by a firearm that year (source: https://www.odmp.org/search?name=&ag...20&filter=nok9)
To steal a favored term from a fictional character...FASCINATING! I decided to look for people who brought up police killings of blacks in the USA. You DO realize that in your very city (Toronto) there is not only a much higher black-white racial disparity of fatal police shootings versus the USA but that Toronto also exhibits a much higher racial disparity of fatal police encounters versus the USA as a whole (meaning whether by shooting or otherwise). In fact, the black/white racial disparity statistics are VERY ugly for Toronto (versus the USA). It will be very difficult for you to "smooth over" these hard numbers, by the way. Very difficult, indeed!
It's also interesting to note that the fatal rate of police shootings of blacks in Toronto is simply higher than the rate in the USA as a whole (not racial disparity rate; but the RAW rate of police fatal shootings of blacks is higher in Toronto than the USA as a whole). That's sooooo sickening when you consider there's no gun culture in Canada!
Again...Canadians would have to remove the speck from their own eyes before criticizing the USA! Now as for the reason everybody thinks the racial disparity is so much worse in the USA (Again, another untrue fantasy! As always, it's actually much worse in Canada, overall!).
The reason the perception is much worse for police killings of blacks in the USA (compared to Canada) is simpler than one might imagine. First, there is something like 40 times the black population in the USA than Canada, so you will here many more cases in the USA (just like you'd hear about more cases outside of California than you would inside California). Second, the powerful US media amplifies such interactions and plays it over and over again (for years on end...). In Canada, the typical media consumer is white and doesn't really care. So even an outrageously unjustified police killing of a black person in Canada might find its way into the dark corner of a local newspaper to never be discussed again whereas that very same killing in the USA will be broadcast around the globe for years to come! There are so many other reasons for the erroneous perception that I don't care to detail in this message.
Now then. I have got to run to work. You already know I am good at math (as are you!). Must I pull up the hard numbers for you? Because if I do, it will have to be at a later time.
Last edited by abcxyz423; 12-27-2021 at 06:42 PM..
Having lived in both countries, I have been reading along and initially did not want to get into a US vs. Canada type of competition, but I have to say that I strongly agree with Lepistiku.
I have been called the n word or told something uncouth more often in a few years in Canada than in a lifetime in the US, but the real kicker is you learn not to talk about it up there. There is a big "it's not as bad as in America" mentality that I think does more harm than good in Canada because it allows problems to go on unresolved. I was also told frequently that certain incidents simply didn't happen (disbelief). I eventually just stopped bothering. After all, I am American and not Canadian and knew (for many of the reasons he mentions) that I wouldn't be sticking around in Canada.
I find Canada to be a nice country with many positive qualities, but I wanted to share this as the post above really resonated with me. I would love to see a world where discussion is more openly embraced and we can all try to walk in each others shoes as humans.
EXCELLENT! So you're African American with experiences in Canada. I am the reverse (African Canadian) and have lived in both countries for decades EACH!
I just finished posting about the N-word differential a few posts back (making precisely your observation about it). Paraphrasing, I posted that I know once I go past the international boundary into Canada (to live), I know I will be counting the months until that N-word reactivates (in all fairness, it's not exactly a daily occurrence). On the contrary, I can live in a large US city and never be called the N-word my entire lifetime (I have NEVER been called the N-word in the USA).
In fact - the only time I have ever even heard of anyone being called the N-word in my circles down South (not quite someone I really knew, but I knew of) was in a hockey rink. AND...you guessed it. It was a Canadian that did the name-calling.
It is soooo sickening that even in the US South, the only person I know of who has been called the N-word was called the N-word by a Canadian! Anyhow, it gave me an instant "flashback" and I KNEW it was true because of my experiences in Canada! The victim is a genuine black American, too! He got a brief taste of some of the treatment he would get if he were to ever live in Canada!
As a black person who has lived in Canada and the United States, my view is that both countries have problems, but I would consider Canada to be the more racist country overall. I wasn't able to vote in the poll, but if I could, I would vote for "Canada is more racist than the USA". One of the main reasons I hold this view is that in America, race and civil rights issues can be (and are) discussed relatively openly; whereas Canadian society mostly still wants to pretend that racism isn't a serious problem in Canada so broaching the subject is somewhat taboo. In America, there is at least awareness and acknowledgement of the problem as well as actual efforts being made to improve the situation; while Canada is largely still in the denial stage when it comes to racism--especially against black people. Broadly speaking, this denial of racism as a serious problem is used as justification to do almost nothing about racism, and to not collect data that would conflict with their narrative (data which has been collected in America for decades). A common variant of this narrative is the one that claims there is no racism against black people, only maybe indigenous people. Another common variant is the one that claims Canada never had slavery (false) or segregation (false) therefore black people don't face racism.
Also, as has been mentioned elsewhere in this thread, in America there are support systems available which can be hugely helpful for black people's career advancement in professional fields at all career stages, starting from middle school, to high school, to summer research programs and camps, to college, to internships, to pipeline programs for all sorts of different industries and professions, to conferences, to mentorship programs, to lifelong professional networks and communities. In comparison, such supports are almost non-existent in Canada.
As a black person in a professional field, I believe my career prospects are far better in the United States than in Canada. Specifically, I believe my being black is far less of a hindrance to my career advancement in America than it is in Canada. America has and/or has had people who look like me at the highest levels of my field, as well as the highest levels of many other fields including federal politics, the supreme court and legal profession, banking, military leadership, and others--in other words, black people in America not uncommonly become "opinion formers", holding key positions of influence in society. I can't say the same about Canada, when I look at who has ever been a Canadian supreme court justice, major bank chairperson or CEO, chief of defence staff, cabinet minister, or judge. And I would be surprised if that situation changes in my lifetime. Additionally, at mid-career and junior levels, it is not unusual for people who look like me to go into these fields in America, but in Canada I am almost always the only black person in the room. In America, I'm generally not the first black person my colleagues have worked with, whereas in Canada that is pretty common. I think this contributes to the difference in work environment that I've experienced between the two countries.
American racism is often more overt and Canadian racism is frequently more covert. But the overt racism of some Americans who I can usually ignore affects me less than the covert racism within Canadian institutions run by people who claim racism isn't really a problem.
I agree with just about everything you've said and your experiences are a close match to my experiences. I also did not get a chance to vote in the poll; but, as a black person whom has lived in both countries, I would have DEFINITELY voted that Canada is more racist than the USA! However, I might take issue with the common (overt vs covert) distinction. It might depend on how you are defining those terms?
Specifically, I find the racism to be more overt in Canada than the USA IF by overt one means "in-your-face". For example, I am called the N-word ONLY in Canada (NEVER in the USA!). But that's just one example!
I can also tell you that what little data they have about adverse police encounters are actually far worse in Canada than the USA (and CERTAINLY the racial disparity in police treatment is much more pronounced in Canada than the USA).
Also, government data (from both countries) demonstrate that the anti-black hate crime rate is more than 4 times higher in Canada than the USA. So, being the victim of a hate crime isn't particularly common in either country. But, if it's going to occur at all, it's far more likely to happen in Canada. Once a black American crosses the international boundary into Canada, his/her statistical odds of being the victim of an anti-black hate crime more than quadruples. To me, that means the racism is more overt in Canada than the USA.
I'm not sure where the opposite narrative is coming from? But again. I'm not sure how you are defining the terms. If by covert, you mean Canadians are more strongly in denial and refuse to acknowledge their racism, maybe you have a case. I don't know?
Noteworthy: For those readers that don't know any better, being called the "N-word", by itself, does not classify as a hate crime in either country! Hate crime involves actual crime (battery; vandalism; etc...). If memory serves correctly, the predominant anti-black hate crime in both countries - USA/Canada - involves vandalism that's clearly determined to be race motivated (like spray-painting "N-word go home" on someone's car, or something of that nature). According to government data, hate crimes like that are FAR more common - proportionately - in Canada than the USA!
Last edited by abcxyz423; 12-28-2021 at 12:49 PM..
To steal a favored term from a fictional character...FASCINATING! I decided to look for people who brought up police killings of blacks in the USA. You DO realize that in your very city (Toronto) there is not only a much higher black-white racial disparity of fatal police shootings versus the USA but that Toronto also exhibits a much higher racial disparity of fatal police encounters versus the USA as a whole (meaning whether by shooting or otherwise). In fact, the black/white racial disparity statistics are VERY ugly for Toronto (versus the USA). It will be very difficult for you to "smooth over" these hard numbers, by the way. Very difficult, indeed!
It's also interesting to note that the fatal rate of police shootings of blacks in Toronto is simply higher than the rate in the USA as a whole (not racial disparity rate; but the RAW rate of police fatal shootings of blacks is higher in Toronto than the USA as a whole). That's sooooo sickening when you consider there's no gun culture in Canada!
Again...Canadians would have to remove the speck from their own eyes before criticizing the USA! Now as for the reason everybody thinks the racial disparity is so much worse in the USA (Again, another untrue fantasy! As always, it's actually much worse in Canada, overall!).
The reason the perception is much worse for police killings of blacks in the USA (compared to Canada) is simpler than one might imagine. First, there is something like 40 times the black population in the USA than Canada, so you will here many more cases in the USA (just like you'd hear about more cases outside of California than you would inside California). Second, the powerful US media amplifies such interactions and plays it over and over again (for years on end...). In Canada, the typical media consumer is white and doesn't really care. So even an outrageously unjustified police killing of a black person in Canada might find its way into the dark corner of a local newspaper to never be discussed again whereas that very same killing in the USA will be broadcast around the globe for years to come! There are so many other reasons for the erroneous perception that I don't care to detail in this message.
Now then. I have got to run to work. You already know I am good at math (as are you!). Must I pull up the hard numbers for you? Because if I do, it will have to be at a later time.
Ok, so post your sources so I can see the statistics and compare. You forgot those. If you’re going to make claims, you have to produce evidence. If what you’re saying is supported by the facts, I’ll concede the point and work harder to raise awareness about police violence towards black citizens in the Toronto area.
I don’t know what my post about black men killed by police in the US has to do with any of this. I’m against excessive use of force by police anywhere and everywhere. If you have sources that show a city in Canada having a particularly egregious record of discrimination and violence towards a minority community, post your data. What are the numbers? Which police force is involved? What are your sources?
I know that there are indigenous communities in Canadian cities that have made credible allegations of police prejudice and misconduct against them. The so-called “starlight tours” are a disgrace, as are the rates of murder and violence against indigenous men and women in this country. There are statistics, reporting and grassroots activism that has shone a light on these issues and I dedicate myself to bringing about positive change the best way I can - through education.
What seems to really stick in your craw is that Canadian people have the nerve to talk about racism in America in a critical way. I think that bothers you a lot more than any racism in Canada.
Ok, so post your sources so I can see the statistics and compare. You forgot those. If you’re going to make claims, you have to produce evidence. If what you’re saying is supported by the facts, I’ll concede the point and work harder to raise awareness about police violence towards black citizens in the Toronto area.
I don’t know what my post about black men killed by police in the US has to do with any of this. I’m against excessive use of force by police anywhere and everywhere. If you have sources that show a city in Canada having a particularly egregious record of discrimination and violence towards a minority community, post your data. What are the numbers? Which police force is involved? What are your sources?
I know that there are indigenous communities in Canadian cities that have made credible allegations of police prejudice and misconduct against them. The so-called “starlight tours” are a disgrace, as are the rates of murder and violence against indigenous men and women in this country. There are statistics, reporting and grassroots activism that has shone a light on these issues and I dedicate myself to bringing about positive change the best way I can - through education.
What seems to really stick in your craw is that Canadian people have the nerve to talk about racism in America in a critical way. I think that bothers you a lot more than any racism in Canada.
OK. I will start you off with some pretty basic information about lethal shootings of black people. I will try to be as concise as possible in all following messages so you can quickly skim-read and do all your own calculations (if desired?). I will point you directly to all the numbers and be as transparent as possible.
Please keep in mind that these are the raw numbers. It would be virtually impossible to close the gap with the USA by playing games with definitions. A lethal police shooting is a lethal police shooting. A police interaction is a police interaction. Number dead is number dead. If nothing else, there's no way around the strict math of the unfavorable Canadian differences (versus USA).
In the meantime, I have enclosed the following brief video...
The source for the above video is a report that was submitted to the Ontario Human Rights Commission (I examined the report a long time ago!). It was submitted by multiple Criminologists from the University of Toronto. The ultimate source (the raw numbers) came from the Special Investigations Unit (SIU). I believe the Special Investigations Unit is an agency that's independent of the actual Toronto Police Service (Thank Goodness for that!).
The above video reports that through the years (2013 - 2017) black civilians were 20 times more likely to be lethally shot dead by the Toronto Police Service than their white counterparts. On the contrary, in the USA on the whole, between (2015 - 2020) - a similar, overlapping period - black people in the USA (taken as a collective whole) were only 2.5 times more likely to be fatally shot by police than their white counterparts (Native Americans were 3 times more likely!). Here's the link to support that...
Twenty(20) times more likely (in Toronto) versus 2.5 times more likely (in the USA on the whole) is NOT an insignificant difference in racial disparity of outcome! In my mind, at least, that clearly points to a much higher degree of racial bias in Toronto (versus the USA on the whole!); at least in that particular aspect of society! Please bear-in-mind...do not think I am singling out Toronto for special treatment (you seem to draw that conclusion for Vancouver Asian hate crime, and such).
For the record, I am not at all suggesting Toronto to be any more or less racist than any other Canadian city. On the contrary, I think Canadian cities are pretty much the same throughout. It's just that Toronto has a large enough black population to have compiled such information for large enough sample sizes and overall analysis. The other city I hope I have time to discuss is Montreal - also with MUCH more racial bias (by the numbers) than the USA and a large enough black population for highly meaningful analyses. Nonetheless, I don't think they are any more-or-less racist than any other Canadian city. After all...I am comparing them to American cities - which I DO, indeed, regard to be less racist (by "feel" AND by the numbers!)!
I believe The Washington Post has some detailed numbers on this topic? It is entirely possible you might find the rare large city in the USA that has higher racial disparity in lethal shooting by police than Toronto. I'm not sure? But, I know that in MOST large cities in the USA - as I recall from earlier research - the racial disparity is somewhere near 2.5-to-1 (give-or-take?), versus 20-to-1 for Toronto.
That's a pretty sickeningly large racial disparity differential between Toronto and the vast majority of large US cities given the fact that all of the US cities have much greater gun cultures than Toronto. How can such a difference in racial disparities of lethal shootings between Toronto and the USA possibly be justified?
Even if you somehow object to the information provided in this current message (hopefully you don't?), I am just warming up. Trust me on that one! Please stay tuned!
Are you black American Urban Luis (or black Canadian)? Which one (if either?).
You'll be interested in knowing that I am presenting some of the data you have requested. Some of it takes video form. Some of it in PDF report.
Just start with my most recent message (before this one) and stay tuned! There's more to come. I am attempting to demonstrate, in this particular series of messages, that there is far more police bias in Canada (more police killings of blacks, and such) than there is in the USA (a much lower rate of police killings of blacks IN SPITE OF the perception everyone has that such things are much worse in the USA!).
It's actually precisely the opposite. Police bias is MUCH greater in Canada than the USA and the actual hard data - not the news reporting drama of the powerful US media - supports it!
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