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It also just occurred to me that you all are currently enjoying a long holiday weekend.
And it was a great holiday weekend. I won big at the track!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Champ le monstre du lac
What's the feeling north of the border on the NHL? Do you think if this pattern continues year after year with so much money and fanfare being thrown at Sunbelt teams that Canada might possibly divide their teams away from the league into a league of their own?
Let's first of all look at the way the NHL was back in the early 1970s.
Back then, the league was headquartered in Montreal, and run by people who understood hockey. Yes, there was an expansion in 1967, doubling the size of the league, and while some choices for expansion teams were questionable (e.g. California Golden Seals, based in Oakland, CA), others thrived (e.g. LA Kings and Philadelphia Flyers). But the Montreal head office understood hockey, and while it made a few errors in placing teams, it made some pretty good choices for expansion.
At some time in the years since, the NHL moved. It is now run from New York City, by American business interests, who have demonstrated that they do not understand hockey at all. They seem to follow the philosophy of "If you build it, they will come," which may work for an Iowa ballpark, but it does not work for hockey.
The OP remarked on "sunbelt cities," and those are what I will comment on. "If you build it, they will come," except they don't. An argument can be made that Canadian sunbirds will attend in Florida and Arizona, but it gets back to what I said earlier: only if their teams are playing. I cannot imagine a Toronto Maple Leafs fan in Florida wanting to go to the arena to see a Dallas-Florida game. A Toronto-Florida game, sure. But nothing else, not even Montreal-Florida or Calgary-Florida.
Similarly, I got to talking with a fellow sports fan at a sports bar in Las Vegas once, some years ago. When I revealed that I was Canadian, he asked, "Aren't you glad that Vegas is getting a hockey team? Now when you come here, you can go to the arena and watch live hockey."
"Buddy," I replied, "I have hockey shoved down my throat ten months out of the year. I come to Las Vegas to get away from hockey."
He was surprised. "But aren't Canadians crazy about hockey?"
"Not if it doesn't involve their team," I replied. "And the Vegas Golden Knights are not, nor will they be, my team, so I won't attend when I'm here. Unless, perhaps, the Toronto Maple Leafs are playing the Golden Knights. Then, I'll think about it."
And that's the problem with sunbelt cities: you're dealing with a hometown crowd whose only experience with ice is in a cocktail glass, and Canadian tourists who won't attend unless their team is involved. Now, Las Vegans (are the meat-eaters called Vegasians?) have embraced their hockey team, which is great. But Atlanta has tried twice, and been unsuccessful. Phoenix is holding on by a thread. Nashville, the home of country music, is not and has never been a hockey town. And so on and so on.
The NHL wants these places to work, but they don't, and they won't. Why? Because the New York head office, headed by American businessmen, doesn't understand where hockey works. Hockey is not the NFL or the NBA; nor is it NCAA football or basketball. "If you build it, they will come" does not obtain in places that do not have a hockey tradition. All of Canada does, but so does the northern USA--remember, that the four American teams of the Original Six were Chicago, Boston, Detroit, and New York. Minnesota has a hockey tradition, as do Pennsylvania, and Ohio, and others. California's LA Kings surprised me. But not Arizona, Tennesee, or Florida. Why the hell do they get teams, when Canadian cities badly want a team, but cannot get one simply because New York says "You can't have one"?
Okay, now here's where I think the NHL ought to put teams.
Quebec City. There's a ready-made base of fans who loved the Nordiques, and would likely be happy to cheer on any NHL team based in their city.
Hamilton, Ontario. Hamiltonians have been wanting an NHL team for years, but American business interests in New York think that a Hamilton team will divide loyalty between the Toronto Maple Leafs and the Buffalo Sabres, so they refuse to consider Hamilton.
Markham, Ontario. "Waitaminit," I hear you saying. "Markham is so close to Toronto. Aren't folks in Markham, Maple Leafs fans?"
Sure they are. But Leafs tickets are priced way out of sight (in the hundreds or thousands of dollars), and the Leafs sell out every game. Plus, if a Markhamite does get a ticket to a Leafs game, then he or she has to get all the way downtown, look for parking, and then pay through the nose for it. Unless he or she uses the subway, which involves driving to a subway station in Toronto and finding a place to park. Assuming that happens, we're looking at about an hour at least, more likely two.
A Markham team makes sense. Gives people in the GTA the chance to watch NHL hockey live, without spending at least $200 a seat for nosebleeds. Hey, if New York City can support two MLB teams, and two NFL teams, and two NHL teams; and Chicago can support two MLB teams; then Toronto can support two NHL teams.
And take away the Arizona, Nashville, and Florida teams. There's three teams that could move to Canada, and there are places to put them.
But that makes too much sense for New York. Listen, Gary Bettman et al. in New York, "If you build it, they will come" only worked in Field of Dreams, okay? It doesn't work with pro hockey.
Last edited by ChevySpoons; 05-23-2023 at 01:16 AM..
Location: northern Vermont - previously NM, WA, & MA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChevySpoons
Quebec City. There's a ready-made base of fans who loved the Nordiques, and would likely be happy to cheer on any NHL team based in their city..
The governor of Connecticut is actively lobbying for the NHL to return to Hartford even though they don't have an NHL arena ready and attendance for the Whalers was low prior to them relocating to Carolina back in the 90's. There's an active discussion about it in the CT forum. Quebec City has an NHL ready arena, so that made me think of this topic here in the Canada forum with the Cayotes franchise moving out of Arizona and up for grabs. It would be weird if the team ended up in a bayou city like Houston. But if I were betting on the mentality of the powers that be, it will likely be Salt Lake City.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChevySpoons
And take away the Arizona, Nashville, and Florida teams. There's three teams that could move to Canada, and there are places to put them.
Exactly my train of thought here. Not impossible since the Atlanta Thrashers moved out and the Winnipeg Jets were reincarnated. Thanks for bringing life to the discussion Chevy You've pretty much covered all the angles I was pondering. Congrats on your winnings!
Last edited by Champ le monstre du lac; 05-23-2023 at 05:39 AM..
Okay, now here's where I think the NHL ought to put teams.
Quebec City. There's a ready-made base of fans who loved the Nordiques, and would likely be happy to cheer on any NHL team based in their city.
Hamilton, Ontario. Hamiltonians have been wanting an NHL team for years, but American business interests in New York think that a Hamilton team will divide loyalty between the Toronto Maple Leafs and the Buffalo Sabres, so they refuse to consider Hamilton.
Markham, Ontario. "Waitaminit," I hear you saying. "Markham is so close to Toronto. Aren't folks in Markham, Maple Leafs fans?"
Sure they are. But Leafs tickets are priced way out of sight (in the hundreds or thousands of dollars), and the Leafs sell out every game. Plus, if a Markhamite does get a ticket to a Leafs game, then he or she has to get all the way downtown, look for parking, and then pay through the nose for it. Unless he or she uses the subway, which involves driving to a subway station in Toronto and finding a place to park. Assuming that happens, we're looking at about an hour at least, more likely two.
A Markham team makes sense. Gives people in the GTA the chance to watch NHL hockey live, without spending at least $200 a seat for nosebleeds. Hey, if New York City can support two MLB teams, and two NFL teams, and two NHL teams; and Chicago can support two MLB teams; then Toronto can support two NHL teams.
And take away the Arizona, Nashville, and Florida teams. There's three teams that could move to Canada, and there are places to put them.
But that makes too much sense for New York. Listen, Gary Bettman et al. in New York, "If you build it, they will come" only worked in Field of Dreams, okay? It doesn't work with pro hockey.
I think Mississauga is a better option. The Peel Region is just as fast if not faster growing than the York Region but its advantage lies in its closer proximity to the rest of the Golden Horseshoe Region. Mississauga really is becoming a city and destination in its own right. If Hamilton does not get a team, then Mississauga ought to. Markham has really redeveloped their centre into a real downtown in recent years but it's still sleepier than Mississauga in my opinion.
Quebec City sounds like a logical choice but something tells me that Montreal would try to push back because it wants to claim the whole province as its fan base.
Another city that would like a hockey team back is Hartford, CT but chances are slim to none that the Whalers will ever return. Hartford is just too close to Boston and New York that no franchise would like to risk moving there. OTOH if the CFL ever expands into the US again, Hartford would be a likeable cholce.
Halifax needs to double its population and wealth. There is absolutely no major sports representation in Canada east of Montreal and absolutely none in the Atlantic Provinces. Halifax just seems so ideal to set up one if not two major league teams. Yes, an NHL Team and the Atlantic Schooners. Wouldn't that be nice?
The governor of Connecticut is actively lobbying for the NHL to return to Hartford even though they don't have an NHL arena ready and attendance for the Whalers was low prior to them relocating to Carolina back in the 90's. There's an active discussion about it in the CT forum....
Thanks for bringing life to the discussion Chevy You've pretty much covered all the angles I was pondering. Congrats on your winnings!
You're quite welcome. A lot of my points are what we talk about at the sports bar, especially when sunbelt teams get into trouble regarding attendance, arenas, revenues, and so on.
Thanks for the heads-up on the discussion on Connecticut lobbying for a team. It was interesting; especially about the point that a team in Hartford would split Connecticut's hockey fandom between Boston and New York, and I see that Urban Peasant addressed this also, just above. Reminded me about the discussions on putting a team in Hamilton.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urban Peasant
I think Mississauga is a better option. The Peel Region is just as fast if not faster growing than the York Region but its advantage lies in its closer proximity to the rest of the Golden Horseshoe Region. Mississauga really is becoming a city and destination in its own right. If Hamilton does not get a team, then Mississauga ought to. Markham has really redeveloped their centre into a real downtown in recent years but it's still sleepier than Mississauga in my opinion....
The reason I mentioned Markham is because it is central. As such, it can draw fans from Peel Region in the west, York Region, and Durham Region in the east, as well as Toronto fans south of Markham. Being north of Toronto offers plenty of easy ways to get there for fans from all three regions and Toronto.
Mississauga is problematic in the same way that Oshawa is: you pretty much have to go through Toronto to get from one to the other. While a Mississauga arena would undoubtedly attract Hamilton and Toronto fans in Etobicoke, I can't see such a location attracting fans in York and Durham regions, or from Scarborough.
Think about where the Maple Leafs play: it is central. Public transit links from all three regions and Toronto are convenient. Markham would offer the same kind of central location. Maybe there's no subway, but there are Go Trains and buses, and other options; plus much more potential for parking. I think it could work.
And it was a great holiday weekend. I won big at the track!
Let's first of all look at the way the NHL was back in the early 1970s.
Back then, the league was headquartered in Montreal, and run by people who understood hockey. Yes, there was an expansion in 1967, doubling the size of the league, and while some choices for expansion teams were questionable (e.g. California Golden Seals, based in Oakland, CA), others thrived (e.g. LA Kings and Philadelphia Flyers). But the Montreal head office understood hockey, and while it made a few errors in placing teams, it made some pretty good choices for expansion.
At some time in the years since, the NHL moved. It is now run from New York City, by American business interests, who have demonstrated that they do not understand hockey at all. They seem to follow the philosophy of "If you build it, they will come," which may work for an Iowa ballpark, but it does not work for hockey.
The OP remarked on "sunbelt cities," and those are what I will comment on. "If you build it, they will come," except they don't. An argument can be made that Canadian sunbirds will attend in Florida and Arizona, but it gets back to what I said earlier: only if their teams are playing. I cannot imagine a Toronto Maple Leafs fan in Florida wanting to go to the arena to see a Dallas-Florida game. A Toronto-Florida game, sure. But nothing else, not even Montreal-Florida or Calgary-Florida.
Similarly, I got to talking with a fellow sports fan at a sports bar in Las Vegas once, some years ago. When I revealed that I was Canadian, he asked, "Aren't you glad that Vegas is getting a hockey team? Now when you come here, you can go to the arena and watch live hockey."
"Buddy," I replied, "I have hockey shoved down my throat ten months out of the year. I come to Las Vegas to get away from hockey."
He was surprised. "But aren't Canadians crazy about hockey?"
"Not if it doesn't involve their team," I replied. "And the Vegas Golden Knights are not, nor will they be, my team, so I won't attend when I'm here. Unless, perhaps, the Toronto Maple Leafs are playing the Golden Knights. Then, I'll think about it."
And that's the problem with sunbelt cities: you're dealing with a hometown crowd whose only experience with ice is in a cocktail glass, and Canadian tourists who won't attend unless their team is involved. Now, Las Vegans (are the meat-eaters called Vegasians?) have embraced their hockey team, which is great. But Atlanta has tried twice, and been unsuccessful. Phoenix is holding on by a thread. Nashville, the home of country music, is not and has never been a hockey town. And so on and so on.
The NHL wants these places to work, but they don't, and they won't. Why? Because the New York head office, headed by American businessmen, doesn't understand where hockey works. Hockey is not the NFL or the NBA; nor is it NCAA football or basketball. "If you build it, they will come" does not obtain in places that do not have a hockey tradition. All of Canada does, but so does the northern USA--remember, that the four American teams of the Original Six were Chicago, Boston, Detroit, and New York. Minnesota has a hockey tradition, as do Pennsylvania, and Ohio, and others. California's LA Kings surprised me. But not Arizona, Tennesee, or Florida. Why the hell do they get Ateams, when Canadian cities badly want a team, but cannot get one simply because New York says "You s can't have one"?
More in a bit.
As much as I resent the NHL's Sunbelt expansion, the reality I must admit is that it has been successful in a number of places: all of the California clubs are viable, as are Vegas, Dallas, Nashville and Tampa.
Atlanta was a disaster and so is Arizona in spite of the never-ending life support. Carolina and Florida are only shakily borderline viable too in my opinion though now that they have made the final four this may give them a bit of a boost.
So I'd say the southern expansion of the NHL has two successes for every failure.
So I cannot see Canadian teams breaking away to form another league. The NHL is Canadian*, and has been for over a hundred years. If any hockey teams are going to break away from the NHL, they would have to be American teams.
* Yes, I know that the NHL is headquartered in New York now, and the commissioner is an American businessman, but no matter how much he wishes it were otherwise, he cannot overcome the league's documented history. The NHL belongs to Canada.
Sorry, I don't see the NHL as "Canadian" in any way, shape or form anymore.
Into the 1990s that impression still persisted, or at least it could be said that it was a league truly shared between the two countries.
At least from my perspective that is all gone now and has been for a while.
It's one of the American sports leagues like all the others now, only with more of Canadian presence on the margins than MLB or the NBA.
Interesting story: in 1989 I was overseas and the Calgary Flames and the Montreal Canadiens were playing in the Stanley Cup final.
The newspaper in the place I was in had a section in its sports pages for "U.S. Sports". The NHL was included in that even back in the day, and stories about the Flames-Habs final were found there under that heading which was accompanied by a US flag.
Sorry, I don't see the NHL as "Canadian" in any way, shape or form anymore.
my 2 cents is this, I arrived in Canada in 94 from Europe and have never really become a passionate Hockey fan, but it is hard to ignore the sport's popularity - I have never seen the NHL as Canadian it is North American - granted Canadians take pride in their national teams at the Junior senior level and of course at the Olympics but nowadays you are just as likely to see Bruins or Flyers jerseys in the bars as you are Senators ones
Sorry, I don't see the NHL as "Canadian" in any way, shape or form anymore.
. . .
It's one of the American sports leagues like all the others now, only with more of Canadian presence on the margins than MLB or the NBA.
I can agree with you on that. I was simply answering the question of "which is the nation in National Hockey League?" And as the expert notes, it is Canada.
Regardless, the NHL is now American, for all intents and purposes. Headquartered in New York and run by American business interests, it might as well be American.
Quote:
Interesting story: in 1989 I was overseas and the Calgary Flames and the Montreal Canadiens were playing in the Stanley Cup final.
The newspaper in the place I was in had a section in its sports pages for "U.S. Sports". The NHL was included in that even back in the day, and stories about the Flames-Habs final were found there under that heading which was accompanied by a US flag.
Interesting indeed. I was in Florence, Italy in 1983, and the International Herald Tribune, published out of New York and printed in Paris, did not have a US Sports section, but it did have a "North American Sports" section, and still reported that the Toronto Argos won the Grey Cup over the BC Lions. As I recall, it was three columns wide by six inches deep. Neither an American flag nor a Canadian one, just a sports story in the sports section.
For that matter, I was in Perth, Australia in June of 1995, when the New Jersey Devils won the Stanley Cup. My news came from the West Australian newspaper, which had NHL scores. Buried among the AFL scores, and the pro golf scores, was the Stanley Cup final results. No mention of American flags or "American sports."
Chevy, in the United States, taxpayers often pay for stadiums which turn out to be white elephants. Call it rent-seeking. Call it crony capitalism. It stinks. It’s a giveaway to the rich.
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think that a Hamilton team will divide loyalty between the Toronto Maple Leafs and the Buffalo Sabres, so they refuse to consider Hamilton.
You've pretty much covered all the angles I was pondering. Congrats on your winnings!
