Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
As a factual matter, some years ago a study was done. A church group on the West Coast was asked to pray for people by name whom they did not know. The people were patients in a hospital on the East Coast. The patients had been matched on all relevant statistics including type of illness and severity. They did not know about the experiment. The patients who were prayed for got significantly better than the patients in the control group.
Whether you call it "prayer" or "healing forces" or "energy", something exists which does influence others. There are some amazing healers in the world, in whose presence a person feels so much peace and love that there is no explanation for it. The Dalai Lama comes to mind. I leave it to others to label it.
I don't find this "evidence" convincing. IIRC, studies with these results are undertaken by religious factions, which already know the results they want to achieve. Such studies are not scientific. Other studies done in a dispassionate nature (there have been one or two), achieve different results.
If there are "energies" which influence others, why must they be associated with god(s)?
I'm just asking for a simple thing; don't impose your beliefs on me -- by writing me, by praying over me without determining if I'm a believer. Give me the same courtesy I am expected to give you; to leave you alone to your own devices, no matter how wrong or silly I think they are.
I’m an agnostic, and the people I work closely with know that well. Among them is a young married couple, both of whom are devout evangelical Christians.
A couple of years ago I was diagnosed with both heart disease and cancer at roughly the same time. I missed about eight weeks of work. When I did get back, this couple presented me with a t-shirt which read “LIFE”. They told me that their congregation had prayed over the shirt. There was no preaching or proselytizing involved.
On an intellectual level, I found that rather silly. I have no reason to believe that the shirt or their prayers are in any way connected to my health status or my medical prognosis. However, on an emotional level, I was touched by the fact that someone took the time and effort to express their concern for my well-being that went beyond the simple “how ya feelin’—welcome back”. Sometimes, it’s important to temper the intellectual with the emotional.
Great post!
This couple was being kind. They expressed themselves according to their belief system. If you want others to accept your beliefs, then you must also allow them theirs. This is freedom of religion.
As a factual matter, some years ago a study was done. A church group on the West Coast was asked to pray for people by name whom they did not know. The people were patients in a hospital on the East Coast. The patients had been matched on all relevant statistics including type of illness and severity. They did not know about the experiment. The patients who were prayed for got significantly better than the patients in the control group.
Whether you call it "prayer" or "healing forces" or "energy", something exists which does influence others. There are some amazing healers in the world, in whose presence a person feels so much peace and love that there is no explanation for it. The Dalai Lama comes to mind. I leave it to others to label it.
Dangerous to argue with the MOD, I know, but I'd like to see the article or journal this was published in. I have read about these studies in numerous books and publications. This study has been repeated numerous times, and the findings are the same: The only time people improve is if they KNOW they are being prayed for. People who are prayed for, yet unaware that they are being prayed for, showed no statistical change in status from those not prayed for (collectively, of course). This leads me (and many others) to believe that prayer is psychosomatic. It works when people think it works. Of course, if you have the article, I'd read it.
From a healing cancer standpoint, no, I don't believe it works. However, if my mom believes it works, I don't care. Me being right is not nearly as important as her healing.
To the OP, I actually agree with you. My parents live in the rural south so I'm always hearing it. I internally roll my eyes, but I say, "Thanks." If I were the one with the caner, perhaps I'd tell them I don't believe in that stuff, but, like I said above, it's about my mom and not me. Since so few here are understanding your POV, I thought I'd let you know that I do. It's irritating to me as well.
This couple was being kind. They expressed themselves according to their belief system. If you want others to accept your beliefs, then you must also allow them theirs. This is freedom of religion.
As I stated before, I don't disallow anyone's belief; the issue is contacting me, with it. I don't think reliance on an irrational belief system is healthy, but it's not my affair if people do that. Believe what you want; just don't email me with this nonsense. And I won't email you, with a quote from Russell or Dawkins (for example).
Do you see the distinction? And the poster who said I'm imposing my non-belief on others by starting this thread; you can chose not to read it.
I'm not surprised by all the responses. I've fogotten the exact figures, but the vast majority of people in the US believe in some conventional religion or another. It's like 95% or something like that.
Dangerous to argue with the MOD, I know, but I'd like to see the article or journal this was published in. I have read about these studies in numerous books and publications. This study has been repeated numerous times, and the findings are the same: The only time people improve is if they KNOW they are being prayed for. People who are prayed for, yet unaware that they are being prayed for, showed no statistical change in status from those not prayed for (collectively, of course). This leads me (and many others) to believe that prayer is psychosomatic. It works when people think it works. Of course, if you have the article, I'd read it.
From a healing cancer standpoint, no, I don't believe it works. However, if my mom believes it works, I don't care. Me being right is not nearly as important as her healing.
To the OP, I actually agree with you. My parents live in the rural south so I'm always hearing it. I internally roll my eyes, but I say, "Thanks." If I were the one with the caner, perhaps I'd tell them I don't believe in that stuff, but, like I said above, it's about my mom and not me. Since so few here are understanding your POV, I thought I'd let you know that I do. It's irritating to me as well.
Thank you! I was hoping at least one person would understand.
My parents were religious, too, and I did not argue the point with them, out of respect. My mother, a little bit, when I was younger, but certainly not as she aged and became ill and died.
It's so simple and yet everyone seems to be so up in arms; I'm only asking that people don't contact me directly, AS IF I agree with all that, when I don't. And I don't think it's harmless, or just being well meaning. They're not aware that other people may find their belief system offensive, and historically, rather frightening, even. It goes way beyond good manners; it's a political and social justice issue of great importance.
You brought us all into your non-belief. You could have just waved off the blessing someone gave you without a second thought. But you made a thread about it and so, here we all are discussing it.
So how are you different?
It seems that it is OK for an atheist to get all huffy when exposed to a different belief system, but whoe unto the Chrstians who does the same.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mvintar
. And I don't think it's harmless, or just being well meaning. They're not aware that other people may find their belief system offensive, and historically, rather frightening, even. It goes way beyond good manners; it's a political and social justice issue of great importance.
Oh, so you are offended? Grow up. It's life.
With that said, I am offended that you find my belief system offensive.
And now you've made this whole kind act a matter of political and social justice. Wow talk about a tempest in a tea pot. So much for Tolerance.
I'm not a big religious guy and have never been one to "offer prayers" or comfort someone with "a better place", etc - at least not in any convincing way or with any conviction
When prayers have been offered for me or those around me I simply say thank on what the gesture means - they are trying to help in a way that they know how in a situation where most people simply don't know what to do and end up doing nothing .. would it be nice if it aligned with my world view more? - sure ..... however, people tend to speak from their own perspective
You talk about others imposing their views on you by offering prayers - I don't see it that way .... they are working within their worldview to reach out and be supportive of you ....... one could argue that getting upset about such things would be forcing your view that there is no god onto them
It's kind of petty and immature to get worked up about such things - I can understand the broader context of having reference points everywhere to things you don't believe in .... but respect their beliefs and what their gesture means and simply say "thanks"
It would be like someone making you dinner so you don't have to when going through a hard time and complaining that they used an ingredient you just don't care for ........ OK, so the way they reached out wasn't perfect but what matters is that they are at least there and that is important and meaningful
BTW - if this religious friend of yours was going through something and the roles were reversed would you offer prayers for them, let them know that god is with them, etc?
>> BTW - if this religious friend of yours was going through something and the roles were reversed would you offer prayers for them, let them know that god is with them, etc?
No; A-theists don't believe in god, so why would I say that????
No matter what- the power of belief even if it is through informed faith or blind faith is useful. In the end your chances for healing and in the bigger picture concerning a possible survival after death--INCREASE with faith and do not diminish. We pitiful human being when are power wains need all the help we can get- Some seek eternal life...some seek oblivion -to be forgotten for ever by man and God...as if they were never born...which is the fate of most - Billions of thinking human beings came before us and billions will come after we are gone.
I guess the point is for someone facing possible premature and un-wanted demise - it is better to believe than not- even if belief is delusional..The power of the human mind and spirit are awesome...and if there is a God- he wished that we use this power- whether we acknowledge him or not - is not the issue...I don't so much pray for someone in need of life sustaining power...I send some of my own- Christ expected us to be like him- not lower or higher..but to know we can accesses godly power through ourselves- When I was searching for the truth and studying- I finally put the books away and a little voice said - The truth is within you- it has always been there- search no more"..
The kingdom of heaven is with in you also- and God believe it or not will never persecute the atheist. Nor will the atheist abuse the idea of God--- It is about abuse- abuse of God------------use him - that is why he is there...Religion for the most part is an abuse of God the father- both in Judaism- Islam and Christianity. I can't help but say this...institutions of all kinds destroy good human progress- sometimes you have to use your God given mind and not pay heed to those who utter divine names in vanity.
Like I said...I do not pray for the afflicted- I simply care for and love them...as for atheists - I* love them whether they want that love or not- they are going to get it anyway. A Christian is of grace and grace by the old definition is "The undeserved mercy of God"-- To love without condition without using the scale of justice to weigh out who deserves what and who does not- None of us deserve mercy- but we all receive it anyway...thanks- I hope for the best.
>> BTW - if this religious friend of yours was going through something and the roles were reversed would you offer prayers for them, let them know that god is with them, etc?
No; A-theists don't believe in god, so why would I say that????
because you would have the same respect for their views that you demand for them to have of your views
you would say it because you know it would bring comfort to them in the way that they relate to - not the way you relate to
just as you demand that this religious friend of yours provide comfort in the way that you relate to and not in the way that they relate to
flip this statement "No; Atheists don't believe in god, so why would I say that????" to your friends point of view and recognize he looks at it from a different belief statement and get "of course, I believe in god and the power of prayer - why wouldn't I do that for a friend"
you expect someone to compromise of shy from their beliefs when offering comfort to you in order to deliver the message that would resonate the strongest - but are unwilling to compromise or shy from your beliefs if the roles were reversed to do the same
which is why it's a big silly to get worked up over someone who is willing to stand in there & be supportive
when myself & my family have gone through hard times I've had some tremendous support that I'm very thankful for - it was amazing to have this group of people who wanted to help and didn't just hide out until things were over and more comfortable - they were willing to stand in and deal with the tears, the emotions, the pain, the different behaviours from us as we were not in a normal mind set ........ we have friends different religious stripes from very much so to not at all .... they all offered their support in the way that they knew and it was all appreciated
I respected that they hung in there and provided a great help that I can never repay - just appreciate and their belief system really didn't matter
There were also lots of people who just simply quit calling, quit reaching out, quick checking in as they didn't want to hear any bad news - they just waited for the "all better" call an stayed on the sidelines ....... i understand it as well .... it's definitely easier to do and it made me more appreciative of those who showed compassion regardless of their choice of phrasing
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
