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I don't agree to anything with you. When you are angry, you say things that make no sense. I don't even wish to read any more of your ridiculousness. You can say whatever you wish, I will likely disagree as I likely have a much wider educational background in history. I can clearly see it. You just spout off and back up nothing. You do this frequently. The only thing I might consider is ignoring you and you should do the same with me.
You don't even agree to disagree?
Kind of sad, don't you think? You're not under attack. While I don't agree with what you say I can still respect you as a person. Can't you do the same? Extending empathy to others we disagree with is the solution to hateful rhetoric in this country. The anonymity of the internet make it so easy to be rude with no repercussions. If only there were a way to provide more incentives for basic decency.
The difference with the recent Nazi protesting is that we are involving people that are literally, categorically opposed to our American ideals! It's crazy that the defensiveness and ignorance of many drive them to defend these cowards instead of standing with American brothers and sisters! Nazis! It's crazy.
You have far more in common with those "evil libs" than you recognize. Hopefully, I pray, more than the Nazis or white supremacists. Please don't let conservative news brainwash your perspective.
The difference with the recent Nazi protesting is that we are involving people that are literally, categorically opposed to our American ideals! It's crazy that the defensiveness and ignorance of many drive them to defend these cowards instead of standing with American brothers and sisters! Nazis! It's crazy.
You are insinuating that he BLM members and the thugs that caused problems in this demonstration are supporting "American ideals?" Who are your "American brothers and sisters"? Are they the ones that wish to destroy history and property and deny Americans their right of expression and their right to demonstrate. Are you blind. I support no particular group that was there. I support the right of any group to peacefully demonstrate without the harassment and threats of outsiders, a bad habit of the left. In London, we have demonstrations practically by extreme radicals. People let them go about their business and do not attack them. These radicals include, Muslim extremists, white supremacists, anti-immigrant and anyone that files to march. Those that attacked the extremists in Charlottesville are the bad guys. When will America grow up and stop being a nation of double standards and hypocrisy. I would bet that very few on the left even know who Robert E. Lee was and their only interest was to cause havoc. Looks like there were more Nazis there than you thought. Just look at the thugs in black with bats and helmets. Is this America or Nazi Germany?
You are insinuating that he BLM members and the thugs that caused problems in this demonstration are supporting "American ideals?" Who are your "American brothers and sisters"? Are they the ones that wish to destroy history and property and deny Americans their right of expression and their right to demonstrate. Are you blind. I support no particular group that was there. I support the right of any group to peacefully demonstrate without the harassment and threats of outsiders, a bad habit of the left. In London, we have demonstrations practically by extreme radicals. People let them go about their business and do not attack them. These radicals include, Muslim extremists, white supremacists, anti-immigrant and anyone that files to march. Those that attacked the extremists in Charlottesville are the bad guys. When will America grow up and stop being a nation of double standards and hypocrisy. I would bet that very few on the left even know who Robert E. Lee was and their only interest was to cause havoc. Looks like there were more Nazis there than you thought. Just look at the thugs in black with bats and helmets. Is this America or Nazi Germany?
American brothers and sisters are Americans. Nazis/White Nationalists are devout to ideals that our founders would oppose and fight. Hopefully you have more in common with Americans opposed to hatred based on race than those advocating for equal rights.
I agree that peaceful protesting should be protected. All the attention on the Nazi/White nationalist cowards is counterproductive. The President emboldens these groups by espousing blame to "both sides" instead of condemning ideals of hatred.
That said, until BLM protesters begin firebombing white establishment homes, dragging white men from their beds and hanging them in the town square, raping white women and girls, some as young as 12, or mowing down entire neighborhoods under a hail of gun fire, even as residents flee… Until that becomes not only policy but an actionable plan, this comparison is disingenuous.
The KKK is a terrorist organization, tolerated by the majority of liberal white America because it has never affected them. That tolerance has allowed them to morph and reorganize like a cancer. You can’t compare a couple of unarmed kids with placards and slogans to men on horseback, pick up trucks and nooses to the latter.
Generally speaking, hate groups are, by our definition, those that vilify entire groups of people based on immutable characteristics such as race or ethnicity. Federal law takes a similar approach.
While it’s no surprise, given our country’s history, that most domestic hate groups hold white supremacist views, there are a number of black organizations on our hate group list as well.
A prime example is the New Black Panther Party (NBPP), whose leaders are known for anti-Semitic and anti-white tirades. Its late chairman, Khalid Abdul Muhammad, famously remarked, “There are no good crackers, and if you find one, kill him before he changes.” Bobby Seale, a founding member of the original Black Panther Party, has called the NBPP a “black racist hate group.”
We have heard nothing remotely comparable to the NBPP’s bigotry from the founders and most prominent leaders of the Black Lives Matter movement and nothing at all to suggest that the bulk of the demonstrators hold supremacist or black separatist views. Thousands of white people across America – indeed, people of all races – have marched in solidarity with African Americans during BLM marches, as is clear from the group’s website. The movement’s leaders also have condemned violence.
There’s no doubt that some protesters who claim the mantle of Black Lives Matter have said offensive things, like the chant “pigs in a blanket, fry ‘em like bacon” that was heard at one rally. But before we condemn the entire movement for the words of a few, we should ask ourselves whether we would also condemn the entire Republican Party for the racist words of its presumptive nominee – or for the racist rhetoric of many other politicians in the party over the course of years.
Many of its harshest critics claim that Black Lives Matter’s very name is anti-white, hence the oft-repeated rejoinder “all lives matter.” This notion misses the point entirely. Black lives matter because they have been marginalized throughout our country’s history and because white lives have always mattered more in our society. As BLM puts it, the movement stands for “the simple proposition that ‘black lives also matter.’”
The backlash to BLM, in some ways, reflects a broad sense of unease among white people who worry about the cultural changes in the country and feel they are falling behind in a country that is rapidly growing more diverse in a globalizing world. We consistently see this phenomenon in surveys showing that large numbers of white people believe racial discrimination against them is as pervasive, or more so, than it is against African Americans.
It’s the same dynamic that researchers at Harvard Business School described in a recent study: White people tend to see racism as a zero-sum game, meaning that gains for African Americans come at their expense. Black people see it differently. From their point of view, the rights pie can get bigger for everyone.
Black Lives Matter is not a hate group. But the perception that it is racist illustrates the problem. Our society as a whole still does not accept that racial injustice remains pervasive. And, unfortunately, the fact that white people tend to see race as a zero-sum game may actually impede progress.
The main issue that I have, is that many on both the Left and Right, typecast those with whom they have disagreement.
Many on the political Right brush past the issue of slavery (as the practice is deplorable and indefensible), while many on the political Left paint, and accuse, the preservers of history as those who hold values that they simply don't hold.
And while I would never suggest that today's American's compromise with evil for the sake of unity, the coarse nature of today's public discourse is disheartening.
The below snippets contradict much of the sentiment that's expressed on this thread. How could this be?
"During the postbellum century, when Americans North and South decided to embrace R. E. Lee as a national as well as a Southern hero, he was generally described as antislavery. This assumption rests not on any public position he took but on a passage in an 1856 letter to his wife. The passage begins: “In this enlightened age, there are few I believe, but what will acknowledge, that slavery as an institution, is a moral & political evil in any Country. It is useless to expatiate on its disadvantages.”
"One thing that clearly drove him was devotion to his home state. “If Virginia stands by the old Union,” Lee told a friend, “so will I. But if she secedes (though I do not believe in secession as a constitutional right, nor that there is sufficient cause for revolution), then I will follow my native State with my sword, and, if need be, with my life.”
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
23,814 posts, read 34,670,113 times
Reputation: 10256
Quote:
Originally Posted by NDL
***
The below snippets contradict much of the sentiment that's expressed on this thread. How could this be?
"During the postbellum century, when Americans North and South decided to embrace R. E. Lee as a national as well as a Southern hero, he was generally described as antislavery. This assumption rests not on any public position he took but on a passage in an 1856 letter to his wife. The passage begins: “In this enlightened age, there are few I believe, but what will acknowledge, that slavery as an institution, is a moral & political evil in any Country. It is useless to expatiate on its disadvantages.”
"One thing that clearly drove him was devotion to his home state. “If Virginia stands by the old Union,” Lee told a friend, “so will I. But if she secedes (though I do not believe in secession as a constitutional right, nor that there is sufficient cause for revolution), then I will follow my native State with my sword, and, if need be, with my life.”
(I'd like to think that the Smithsonian magazine is a pretty reliable source)
They make perfect sense until you understand that, as an officer in the US army, Lee took an oath to the country, not to Virginia. They never mention that when the explain Lee. I found out about the oath when I read why George Thomas, also a Virginian, stayed with the federal army. He felt that the oath was more important than Virginia.
They make perfect sense until you understand that, as an officer in the US army, Lee took an oath to the country, not to Virginia. They never mention that when the explain Lee. I found out about the oath when I read why George Thomas, also a Virginian, stayed with the federal army. He felt that the oath was more important than Virginia.
That's the point I was making
2 + 2 = 5?
No.
In the quote that I provided, it is clear that Lee saw an allegiance to his State, more than he did his Nation.
In the preamble to the Constitution of the Confederate States, the document opens up with an assertion of State's rights.
Numerous sources state that Stonewall Jackson educated African Americans at his own expense.
These facts contradict much of the sentiment that's expressed in this thread.
This, more than anything else, speaks to the division between peoples: one group asserts that their opponent aligns themselves with values that their opponent abhors.
The dissension between groups is now reaching a critical point.
While it is indeed DUMB of me to mention history (the notion that history be taught lest society repeat past mistakes is laughable to some) - history teaches us that one component of Rome's demise was disunity between peoples; Rome could not hold all of them together as one people.
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
23,814 posts, read 34,670,113 times
Reputation: 10256
Quote:
Originally Posted by NDL
That's the point I was making
2 + 2 = 5?
No.
In the quote that I provided, it is clear that Lee saw an allegiance to his State, more than he did his Nation.
In the preamble to the Constitution of the Confederate States, the document opens up with an assertion of State's rights.
Numerous sources state that Stonewall Jackson educated African Americans at his own expense.
These facts contradict much of the sentiment that's expressed in this thread.
This, more than anything else, speaks to the division between peoples: one group asserts that their opponent aligns themselves with values that their opponent abhors.
Lee saw his allegiance to Virginia. Thomas saw his allegiance to the country, because of the oath. They all took the same oath. Apparently, they saw the oath differently. During the centennial of the war, there was great emphasis of the division of families during the war.
Thomas was a slave-owning union officer, from Virginia. It's easy to compare him to Lee.
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