Chicago-Ashburn, Beverly, Pill Hill, Morgan Park, Mount Greenwood (Oak Lawn, Auburn: crime, home)

[Drover]

Originally Posted by MannheimMadman

I agree. However, isn't it a majorly black neighborhood? My experience with Ashburn comes from familiarizing myself with Bogan HS. I'd think it would be odd for a young white woman to be there.

It is not a majority-black neighborhood, though black is the largest plurality demographic. The western edge of Ashburn is pretty white, so being white in Ashburn doesn't make you particularly out of place.

As others have said, my concern with Ashburn wouldn't so much be the Ashburn of today as the Ashburn of tomorrow. I would consider renting there, but I'd be quite hesitant about putting down roots there.

[JoeyPants]

If demographics pattern continue. Tomorrows Ashburn will be today's Chicago Lawn. If you look at the demographic shifts in Chicago Lawn and Ashburn you will see that it's following a pattern, as many other neighborhoods especially ones located on the city's fringe. The patterns in those areas certainly point to a Black majority in the near future. While a majority Black neighborhood may not be a problem for all, it certainly is to some. In summary drive around Chicago Lawn (Marquette Park) to get a feel of what Ashburn will look like in 10 years.

Chicago Lawn

Ashburn

[ajolotl]

I suppose that is as fair an assessment as any.

This Times article is old but still interesting and relevant to this thread:
For Black Home Buyers, a Boomerang - NYTimes.com

[ajolotl]

Originally Posted by JoeyPants

If demographics pattern continue. Tomorrows Ashburn will be today's Chicago Lawn. If you look at the demographic shifts in Chicago Lawn and Ashburn you will see that it's following a pattern, as many other neighborhoods especially ones located on the city's fringe. The patterns in those areas certainly point to a Black majority in the near future. While a majority Black neighborhood may not be a problem for all, it certainly is to some. In summary drive around Chicago Lawn (Marquette Park) to get a feel of what Ashburn will look like in 10 years.

This theory does have limits, though, which I'm reminded of daily watching white people buy up nearby homes in east beverly. East Beverly was supposed to have "turned" by 1977 as part of the wave that turned Washington Heights.

Of course Beverly has a lot more going for it (in terms of housing stock, landscape, etc.), but some parts of Ashburn are pretty viable.

[deechee]

Originally Posted by ajolotl

This theory does have limits, though, which I'm reminded of daily watching white people buy up nearby homes in east beverly. East Beverly was supposed to have "turned" by 1977 as part of the wave that turned Washington Heights.

Of course Beverly has a lot more going for it (in terms of housing stock, landscape, etc.), but some parts of Ashburn are pretty viable.

East Beverly is not bordered by some awful ghetto like some people think it is. I don't know why people make these assumptions. Washington Heights is NO ghetto, and I feel just as safe walking down a street in WH as I do in Mount Greenwood, Beverly, and Morgan Park (well most of MP).

I see no problem with living next to anyone, no matter what race they are. I would only move or not move somewhere if I felt unwelcome. If your black neighbors who are so-called "turning" these neighborhoods let you know you aren't welcome, that's when you leave. If you are safe, know your area, and have common sense, wtf is the problem?

This is why I pray for the future. We are headed down a sad path if that's how people will continue to think.

I'm gonna sell my property because a black family or three moved on the block? Pfft.

[Drover]

Originally Posted by deechee

East Beverly is not bordered by some awful ghetto like some people think it is. I don't know why people make these assumptions. Washington Heights is NO ghetto, and I feel just as safe walking down a street in WH as I do in Mount Greenwood, Beverly, and Morgan Park (well most of MP).

I see no problem with living next to anyone, no matter what race they are. I would only move or not move somewhere if I felt unwelcome. If your black neighbors who are so-called "turning" these neighborhoods let you know you aren't welcome, that's when you leave. If you are safe, know your area, and have common sense, wtf is the problem?

This is why I pray for the future. We are headed down a sad path if that's how people will continue to think.

I'm gonna sell my property because a black family or three moved on the block? Pfft.

That's an interesting perception. Here's the reality: the violent crime rate in Washington Heights is 5 times higher than that of Beverly. And it's not a gradual progression from one neighborhood to the other; Washington Heights is literally on the wrong side of the (Metra) tracks and the incidence of crime drastically changes once you cross from one neighborhood to the other. Even by Chicago standards the violent crime rate in Washington Heights is high; more specifically, about 40% higher than the average of an already unacceptably violent city. (By contrast, the violent crime rate in Beverly is about 1/4th that of the city's average.)

I get where you're coming from, much of Washington Heights just doesn't look very threatening. By many appearances it has all the hallmarks of a middle-class city, and strictly speaking in terms of actual income, it probably is. When you get away from some of the more ragged-looking retail corridors and drive down the residential side streets, it looks like a pretty nice neighborhood and it's evident that most of its residents take pride in their properties and in their community. But make no mistake: beneath the surface, its bite is worse than its bark.

[ajolotl]

Good post. I have to admit that my perception had leaned more in the direction of Deechee's -- at least north of 103rd and east of beverly, the neighborhood looks pretty benign, even tidy in spots -- mostly well kept modest brick homes on regular lots. Also, seems like most of the murders are happening in West Pullman, Roseland, and to a lesser extent in Auburn/Gresham. I guess I was fooled by perceptions.

Outside of certain very specific areas, I'm always surprised out how normal and functional the notorious neighborhoods of the south side appear between violent episodes -- quiet and peaceful for the most part and lots of normal looking people are going about their regular business. Yes, there are some horribly blighted commercial strips, particularly in the 60's and 70's east of the Dan Ryan, parts of Roseland, etc. but there are also huge, relatively vibrant commercial districts (even if most of the stuff I would never want to buy). It really, really reminds me of a third world country, except that the housing stock and infrastructure are of a far more affluent country.

Originally Posted by Drover

That's an interesting perception. Here's the reality: the violent crime rate in Washington Heights is 5 times higher than that of Beverly. And it's not a gradual progression from one neighborhood to the other; Washington Heights is literally on the wrong side of the (Metra) tracks and the incidence of crime drastically changes once you cross from one neighborhood to the other. Even by Chicago standards the violent crime rate in Washington Heights is high; more specifically, about 40% higher than the average of an already unacceptably violent city. (By contrast, the violent crime rate in Beverly is about 1/4th that of the city's average.)

I get where you're coming from, much of Washington Heights just doesn't look very threatening. By many appearances it has all the hallmarks of a middle-class city, and strictly speaking in terms of actual income, it probably is. When you get away from some of the more ragged-looking retail corridors and drive down the residential side streets, it looks like a pretty nice neighborhood and it's evident that most of its residents take pride in their properties and in their community. But make no mistake: beneath the surface, its bite is worse than its bark.

[deechee]

Maybe it's my bias, having lived there.

[BRU67]

Originally Posted by deechee

East Beverly is not bordered by some awful ghetto like some people think it is. I don't know why people make these assumptions. Washington Heights is NO ghetto, and I feel just as safe walking down a street in WH as I do in Mount Greenwood, Beverly, and Morgan Park (well most of MP).

I see no problem with living next to anyone, no matter what race they are. I would only move or not move somewhere if I felt unwelcome. If your black neighbors who are so-called "turning" these neighborhoods let you know you aren't welcome, that's when you leave. If you are safe, know your area, and have common sense, wtf is the problem?

This is why I pray for the future. We are headed down a sad path if that's how people will continue to think.

I'm gonna sell my property because a black family or three moved on the block? Pfft.

Strong are the dangers in self-fulfilling prophecies. So too are the evils of well-intentioned naivety.

Ok, that was my stab at a fortune cookie saying this morning. Not bad, IMHO. In any event, if anyone's interested in that area, or any other for that matter, I would not rely on people who don't live there and who may have certain preconceptions about it. Check the crime stats in the area. There's a site somewhere on here where you can check crime in Chicago block by block.

And I'd also endeavor to actually talk with people who live there, and see how bad the barks and bites are. You may want to start with the Neighborhood Watch group, if they have one. Some may blow smoke up your you-know-what but if you talk to a few, you'll start to get a flavor of what the particular area you're looking at is really like.

You should also consider potential neighborhood change but realistically, no one can say with certainty that X neighborhood will be like Y neighborhood in 10 years. Most areas, including exburbs which most assume automatically will never change, face the risk of adverse demographic change. The few exceptions are the most expensive and established communities such as Lake Forest, Winnetka, Hinsdale, etc.

[deechee]

Strong are the dangers in self-fulfilling prophecies. So too are the evils of well-intentioned naivety.

Ok, that was my stab at a fortune cookie saying this morning. Not bad, IMHO. In any event, if anyone's interested in that area, or any other for that matter, I would not rely on people who don't live there and who may have certain preconceptions about it. Check the crime stats in the area. There's a site somewhere on here where you can check crime in Chicago block by block.
-I still have family there, I am there almost everyday. I am quite sure I know what the neighborhood is like.

And I'd also endeavor to actually talk with people who live there, and see how bad the barks and bites are. You may want to start with the Neighborhood Watch group, if they have one. Some may blow smoke up your you-know-what but if you talk to a few, you'll start to get a flavor of what the particular area you're looking at is really like.

-There are quite a few good ones in WH. Not all of them will be completely honest, as you expect, but most will. Most of Washington Heights is really nice. I will not say so for the area around Ashland between 87th to 99th...

You should also consider potential neighborhood change but realistically, no one can say with certainty that X neighborhood will be like Y neighborhood in 10 years. Most areas, including exburbs which most assume automatically will never change, face the risk of adverse demographic change. The few exceptions are the most expensive and established communities such as Lake Forest, Winnetka, Hinsdale, etc.

-I will agree with you there. But it takes you as a citizen to stand up for your community, as I do everyday. I like my home, I like my neighborhood as it is now, and I will fight to keep it that way as long as I choose to live here.