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Can segregation be a good thing? Does it preserve certain cultures that came to America? I'm talking about people freely and willing to live in a community of similar culture and race.
If every race and culture lived together would our American culture become more homogenized?
I was talking to a guy from Chicago the other day and he said that all races and cultures mix in the Loop, but then they go home to a neighborhood of similar race and culture. Is this a bad thing?
i think that's a matter of definition. i don't look at the idea of an ethnic neighborhood as being an example of segregation. it is a coming together of people with strong common bonds, a culture, a sense of community. it is about a very strong type of inclusion…..but without any real exclusion (and I believe in segregation that exclusion is the main factor….it's not about who you want in; it's about who you want left out). a white, black, or hispanic can and undoubtably does live in Chinatown.
black americans can fit the idea of a defined group. these are people of a specific and highly pinpointed region: coastal west African roots in a region where Africa's Atlantic shores bend from horizontal to vertical (Obama, a son of an east african, thus not being even that 1/2 member of such) that were slaves in the American south for nearly 3 centuries.
white americans are not a group. and they never were. white america was a construct invented to define itself as not-black. white america is an amalgamation of people whose membership increased over the history of the republic. white america began with WASPS, expanded to include other western/northern European Protestants, went on to anoint Catholic Europeans including those from southern and eastern Europe, and then gave whiteness to Jews. Those Catholics and Jews were taken in for a very strong reason: in the post-Civil War era, with blacks freed, there was a need to pad the numbers, pad the percents, and eastern and southern Europeans were giving their membership cards for a reason (do you really think a Jew or an Italian or a Greek appeared to be "white" to the America of their time?) Today, I would contend, a child of white and asian parents and one of white and hispanic parents is given white status; a child of black and any of the other 3 so called races is not.
white culture does not exist. white culture never existed. white culture is not the culture it says it is. white culture is american culture, the culture forged by the national experience. blacks simply were not allowed to join this american culture, were not given club membership, were excluded.
so probablyimnotsure's america (or chicago) embracing ethnic communities of diverse cultures, particularly those who came to our nation most recently is a beautiful thing. and i don't see any real segregation in it: it does say "we're in" and it says with the comfort of being with one's own culture; but it by no means says "you're out" and thus it is not, IMHO, segregating at all. Segregation requires a pariah and black america had this in their veins from the get go, coming as slaves and slaves, by their very definition must be different, worse, subhuman, a lower class, definitely not "us" for if they were no so perceived, if the fiction were not played out, then it would be soul crushing impossible to live with oneself, to be comfortable in one's own skin, to see oneself as a "good person.". slavery planted its impact on america from the first non-indentured servant African to be brought to our shores in chains and has been an intregal part of our national persona very much so up to today. you simply cannot understand america on any level, how it works, how it ticks, if you don't understand race and its pervasiveness in the fabric of american life, you don't have a clue what America is. and what it is about.
One thing that I am puzzled by is this idea that liberal Whites can't be racists or conservative Whites are automatically racist. That thought process is total BS. Blacks are doing better career wise in conservative states. Look at the growth of the Black middle class in Texas, Georgia and the Carolinas. Look at the exodus from New York, New Jersey, Illinois and Massachusetts.
Chicago is segregated because its a part of the way the city functions. And yes it does impact the African American experience more than any other group. I personally can attest to this being a major deterrent for Black transplants not wanting to settle in the city.
Less than 6% of Whites in Chicago share a zip code thats 20% Black. Snatch Hyde Park, Uptown and a few spots here and there, its basically nonexistent.
Chicago has many things going for it as a city but Black and White race relations isn't one of them.
I have lived in Newark, NJ (pre-dominantly black) and Jersey City, NJ in a very black neighborhood. Until I came to Chicago, I thought the racial segregation/tensions were fazing out for the most part in this country. Make No Mistake. Chicago's segregation still affects us today. I feel a much more intense tension between North Side whites and South Side blacks in this city. Everytime I am in a black neighborhood I am repeatedly asked if I am a cop and often denied things such as buying loose cigarettes on the street - which I did this in NJ/NYC constantly and met no opposition.
When I do work in black neighborhoods and take my lunch break and walk to the corner store, many blacks loitering outside immediately scramble away as I pass or say "Hey Officer". There is a clear sense of white/black distrust I feel like. More than my home state for sure. I am the furthest thing from a cop.
If one feels there's this grave injustice of segregation, well, put your tender bits where your mouth is and move in there and un-segregate it. But no one is willing to do this, so the problem persists.
The answer to this OP's question is yes...and I'll go further to say that the pattern affects mostly the segregation between Blacks and Whites as Hispanics and Asians are more likely to live amongst Whites than Blacks are.
You know...an article came out today about how wealthy Black Chicagoans (and they defined wealthy as making $100,000 or more) were leaving Chicago for southern states and they were analyzing why.
Of course, the most common reason was that Black communities in Chicago were no longer viable options for many to live in and job opportunities are difficult to come by (as well as advancement opportunities for those whom have jobs). Another factor was more opportunities for entrepreneurship in other states. And also, people made comments such as "EVERYBODY is moving regardless of color due to taxes, crime, corruption"...but those factors are not affecting everyone the same...not at all.
One factor that was not mentioned in the analysis was the fact that for high income African-Americans who desire areas with good amenities, great schools, and safe surroundings, their choices are often limited to areas where they are not made to feel welcome at all. And I feel that this is a major factor for why many are leaving. People always talk about how racist and segregated the south is compared to the north, but when I have gone to major cities and their suburban areas in the south (and I have been to Atlanta, Houston, Dallas, Birmingham, Charlotte to name a few), I notice how integrated and thriving those many of those areas are. This is not to say that race relations are perfect, but they appear to be so much better overall than up here. This area is so segregated. The patters of segregation in the 20th century still impact us today and you can see this beyond the city limits...look in the suburbs...you go east of 57 and the suburbs are over 80% Black at least...west of 57, the suburbs are at least 80-90% White...and while the suburbs west of 57 have overall higher assessed property values, they are within reach of most residents of the suburbs east of 57. But why so segregated? Because many residents east of 57 do not feel as though they would be welcomed in the suburbs west of 57. While this has changed VERY slowly (Frankfort's Black population is higher in both percentage and raw numbers than Orland Park), some folks I know have stated that they would feel better moving out of state to southern cities than across the highway to another suburb that historically (and some to this day) had issues with minority presence.
Overall in Chicago, integration is mostly valued when it includes an Asian/Indian presence...less so with some Hispanic/Latino presence (unless it is higher income) and even much more less so with Black presence (no matter the income unless this is regarding West African immigrants, in some cases)
Interesting thread. I'll say this: When I was a mentor to a young black youth a few years ago, and during my interview before I was accepted into the program the interviewer - female - said that they (the program) were glad I applied. I asked why. She said that most of the mentors were women which created an imbalance, that their weren't enough male mentors for the male teenagers, and that many said teenagers came from single parent households without proper male guidance.
I use to be really interested with the segregation in Chicago, thinking that it was due to racism. I now think differently. Has segregation caused certain parts of the South Side to faulter and become unattractive? Yes, but I don't think to the degree where one can point to segregation. An honest mind should go beyond the often bandied narrative. The household and the culture within the household are rarely discussed. I wonder why; the fingers are mainly pointed at the city's racist past and its affects, but you can only point at it for so long unless someone questions that narrative.
Many once run-down neighborhoods have become more attractive due to gentrification, either an influx of immigrants with certain values/skills or youthful urban pioneering, which helped the displacement of the previous occupants (if they were not of the same values or of the same economic bracket). Racial integration does not necessarily mean "good." Racial integration is, truly, skin deep. It doesn't mean anything of real substance besides fluff-feel-good thinking. And that it looks good. You can put a black and white family with questionable values on the same block and I guarantee you it won't make the block anymore attractive than before - it won't increase the educational standard at the local school, it won't increase the local economy and it won't make once empty lots into homes or businesses.
Last edited by TheSunshineKid; 09-28-2015 at 03:47 PM..
Interesting thread. I'll say this: When I was a mentor to a young black youth a few years ago, and during my interview before I was accepted into the program the interviewer - female - said that they (the program) were glad I applied. I asked why. She said that most of the mentors were women which created an imbalance, that their weren't enough male mentors for the male teenagers, and that many said teenagers came from single parent households without proper male guidance.
I use to be really interested with the segregation in Chicago, thinking that it was due to racism. I now think differently. Has segregation caused certain parts of the South Side to faulter and become unattractive? Yes, but I don't think to the degree where one can point to segregation. An honest mind should go beyond the often bandied narrative. The household and the culture within the household are rarely discussed. I wonder why; the fingers are mainly pointed at the city's racist past and its affects, but you can only point at it for so long unless someone questions that narrative.
Many once run-down neighborhoods have become more attractive due to gentrification, either an influx of immigrants with certain values/skills or youthful urban pioneering, which helped the displacement of the previous occupants (if they were not of the same values or of the same economic bracket). Racial integration does not necessarily mean "good." Racial integration is, truly, skin deep. It doesn't mean anything of real substance besides fluff-feel-good thinking. And that it looks good. You can put a black and white family with questionable values on the same block and I guarantee you it won't make the block anymore attractive than before - it won't increase the educational standard at the local school, it won't increase the local economy and it won't make once empty lots into homes or businesses.
Sunshine, I believe you are the only person who addressed the issues i have raised. you seem to get it.
my interest in this thread centered on one thing only: the huge size of Chicago's segregated black areas, a pattern different from any other city, created a huge swaths of land that become totally resistant to reinvigoration. dead zones if you will.
and if these huge areas didn't exist and instead, black neighborhoods has been interspersed with other neighborhoods (still segregation, mind you) we probably would not have dead zones today.
so someone? anyone? want to bite: Do Chicago's huge inner city zones prevent reinvigoration which would have taken place if they weren't so large?
What does inner city mean? The INTER city of Chicago is a great place to live. Inter city to me, are the areas directly connecting to and including downtown. Which one of these areas are bad?
The far west side of the city sucks. The far south side of the city sucks.
I want to know, as a person who has lived in the alleged INTER city, what does inner city mean? Is it a liberal code word for black neighborhoods?
If so, why do we give it a fake name like inner city? Are you afraid to call it a black or bad neighborhood?
It's not a Chicago thing. It's an American thing. You see the same thing all over the country. Chicago is not special.
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