Comparing NYC Neighborhoods and Chicago Neighborhoods (Oak Park, Washington: buy, school, sales tax)

[Irishtom29]

Originally Posted by lastonestanding

It didnt happen in Austin, but it did happen in Oak Park. People did not leave Oak Park in droves when it diversified and Oak Park today is still a vibrant community.

Oak Park had it's own government and police. It is not Chicago. It had the will (and the power) to stop Black encroachment. And many people did leave Oak Park; maybe not droves but many.

[BRU67]

Originally Posted by Chiguy1957

There is a large swath of black culture that has glorified thug life. Minority leaders have turned a blind eye to the death and destruction in their own communities unless there are TV cameras present to give them a forum to perpetuate the blame cycle. Schools are bad? Your daughters are pregnant at 13? Your sons are gang-banging and selling drugs? Your neighborhood is an urban war zone? Blame the white establishment instead of the absence of responsible adults and parents.

Very interesting response. Rebuttal? And would these activities be grounds to move from a neighborhood? And if not, why not?

[lastonestanding]

Originally Posted by Chiguy1957

There is no doubt in my mind that racism has played a part in shaping the way things are, but too many black people are a bit too quick to play the race card for everything. This is disingenuous at best.

There is a large swath of black culture that has glorified thug life. Minority leaders have turned a blind eye to the death and destruction in their own communities unless there are TV cameras present to give them a forum to perpetuate the blame cycle. Schools are bad? Your daughters are pregnant at 13? Your sons are gang-banging and selling drugs? Your neighborhood is an urban war zone? Blame the white establishment instead of the absence of responsible adults and parents.

Until the black community as a whole "sacks-up" and confronts these uncomfortable truths, integration on Chicago's south and west sides and bordering suburban areas will continue to be defined as the period of time between the arrival of the first minority and the departure of the last caucasian.

Sorry for the thread drift, but the "not theirs to take" comment kinda set me off with its total double standard implications and lefty guilt. I can't make any recommendations on NYC neighborhoods as I've never lived there, but I wish you luck in your quest for Utopia.

The OP was basically saying he did not want to relocate to a neighborhood that is experiencing the same kind of gentrification as neighborhoods in Chicago are experiencing. If thats his preference than fine you have the right to your opinion and so does he. I wouldnt want to relocate to a neighborhood that has been gentrified either, but thats just me being that my family were victims of gentrification and some of my relatives still to this day are dealing with that.

I would have recommended Harlem to the OP being that there are major changes taking place in Harlem right now and its affordable, but Harlem is experiencing major gentrification on the same level as Bronzeville. I dont see where the race card was pulled in this thread. I think the OP was basically saying he did not want to relocate to an area where people are being forced out of their homes for redevelopment and "urban renewal."

Everything you mentioned above such as "glorified thug life and girls becoming pregnant at 13" are just social issues that are effecting the black community and are not just only affecting the black community alone. And as far as blacks always pulling the race card, thats just a stereotype that many people believe because some do always pull the race card, but actually I see more older black people pointing the finger at young black males as the problem than I do seeing them pull the race card.

Sorry for getting off the topic as well, but I wanted to comment on this response. I too hope you find what your looking for in New York. While I was there visiting I stayed in Harlem and did see improvements in that area.

[lastonestanding]

Originally Posted by Irishtom29

Oak Park had it's own government and police. It is not Chicago. It had the will (and the power) to stop Black encroachment. And many people did leave Oak Park; maybe not droves but many.

Although people may have left Oak Park, its still a vibrant community thats not crime-ridden. And no it is not Chicago, but you can say the same thing about Harvey, Riverdale, Maywood, etc....

[Irishtom29]

Originally Posted by lastonestanding

Although people may have left Oak Park, its still a vibrant community thats not crime-ridden. And no it is not Chicago, but you can say the same thing about Harvey, Riverdale, Maywood, etc....

OK, so what's your point? You were responding to my point that an individual on the West Side of Chicago was powerless against social and economic forces that changed it. Do you disagree?

[temp2290]

Originally Posted by Chiguy1957

There is no doubt in my mind that racism has played a part in shaping the way things are, but too many black people are a bit too quick to play the race card for everything. This is disingenuous at best.

There is a large swath of black culture that has glorified thug life. Minority leaders have turned a blind eye to the death and destruction in their own communities unless there are TV cameras present to give them a forum to perpetuate the blame cycle. Schools are bad? Your daughters are pregnant at 13? Your sons are gang-banging and selling drugs? Your neighborhood is an urban war zone? Blame the white establishment instead of the absence of responsible adults and parents.

Until the black community as a whole "sacks-up" and confronts these uncomfortable truths, integration on Chicago's south and west sides and bordering suburban areas will continue to be defined as the period of time between the arrival of the first minority and the departure of the last caucasian.

Sorry for the thread drift, but the "not theirs to take" comment kinda set me off with its total double standard implications and lefty guilt. I can't make any recommendations on NYC neighborhoods as I've never lived there, but I wish you luck in your quest for Utopia.

Well it all starts with treating other cultures fairly. This still isn't being done, the playing field in 2010 is certainly not level, therefore generally blaming urban residents for their own situation is (in part) blaming the victim. I qualify this statement with "generally" because the story is much different if you are looking on a case by case basis. That is a point that I feel most on this board doesn't understand: you can condemn the lifestyle of one safely but to extrapolate that to a large population is disingenuous at best.

Of course there needs to be action taken by urban communities but that is THEIR responsibility. It, however, is OUR responsibility (as I am assuming most people posting on the internet are on the wealthy side) to make sure the playing field is level for all people with respect to housing, jobs, etc and to correct the mistakes of the past to aid them as much as possible in their development. I certainly don't believe that the here and now is the best of all possible worlds and believing so is akin to believing that "there is nothing left to invent", which is absurd. There may be no such thing as utopia but there is certainly a Chicago better than 2010's Chicago.

It would be very easy to point the finger and say "Hey look these people are being given every opportunity to succeed yet they are not, let's just treat them like dogs and kick them to the curb" but the premise in this statement is far, far from true.

[Avengerfire]

Originally Posted by temp2290

Well it all starts with treating other cultures fairly. This still isn't being done, the playing field in 2010 is certainly not level, therefore generally blaming urban residents for their own situation is (in part) blaming the victim...

Oh please. There is a black man in the White House.

[lastonestanding]

Originally Posted by Irishtom29

So what's your point? You were responding to my point that an individual on the West Side of Chicago was powerless against social and economic forces that changed it. Do you disagree?

My point is the same issues that caused the West Side and most of the Southside of Chicago to deteriorate are the same issues that caused suburban communities such as Maywood and Harvey to deteriorate, but Oak Park seem to have not been affected by those same issues. Why???? If white flight took place in those areas, than why it didnt take place to the same extent in Oak Park??? So yes I disagree.

Maybe I would agree that one individual is powerless, but not a group of individuals. And for someone to say that the government in Oak Park saw the effects of white flight that took place in Chicago and countered it is basically an excuse. White flight took place all over the country and plenty of communities saw the results of white flight and could have prevented white flight from taking place. Today the answer to white flight is gentrification.

[Avengerfire]

Originally Posted by lastonestanding

My point is the same issues that caused the West Side and most of the Southside of Chicago to deteriorate are the same issues that caused suburban communities such as Maywood and Harvey to deteriorate, but Oak Park seem to have not been affected by those same issues. Why????...

Because most of Oak Park borders Elmwood Park,River Forest,Berwyn and Galewood. For the most part the portions of Oak Park that border Austin SUCK.

[Irishtom29]

Originally Posted by lastonestanding

And for someone to say that the government in Oak Park saw the effects of white flight that took place in Chicago and countered it is basically an excuse.

It's not an excuse it's a reason. It's what in fact happened.

And there were groups in Austin that tried to fight but they didn't have the power the real estate people had and city government was hostile to or at best apathetic to their efforts. Unlike city governement in Oak Park.

Gentrifcation works largely because the forces that drove Black migration have ebbed at the same time those that drive gentrification have increased.

You're not arguing that modern gentrifiers and the people of Oak Park are some kind of specially enlightened and morally superior group, are you? That puts me in mind of Baby Boomers who think a person who drives an Audi is different in some important and fundamental way from one who drives a Buick.