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I almost missed your post what with all my posting. Great way to look at it! Therefore some have it backwards. It is the lost that are saved not the found that are saved.
Yep, that's another good way to say it. Jesus said that the poor in spirit are also those that are blessed:
Mat 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Interesting word, that word "poor". Here is what Edward Robinson's lexicon says regarding it:
πτωχός
ptōchós, fem. ptōchḗ, neut. ptōchón, adj. from ptōssō (n.f.), to crouch, cower like a beggar. Poor and helpless. As a subst., someone in abject poverty, utter helplessness, complete destitution.
Lost sinners have much to be thankful for! Jesus saved them, but alot of them just don't know it, as yet. But they will, when He calls them home .
Yep, that's another good way to say it. Jesus said that the poor in spirit are also those that are blessed:
Mat 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Interesting word, that word "poor". Here is what Edward Robinson's lexicon says regarding it:
πτωχός
ptōchós, fem. ptōchḗ, neut. ptōchón, adj. from ptōssō (n.f.), to crouch, cower like a beggar. Poor and helpless. As a subst., someone in abject poverty, utter helplessness, complete destitution.
Lost sinners have much to be thankful for! Jesus saved them, but alot of them just don't know it, as yet. But they will, when He calls them home .
Do we have any choice in being in the first Adam? NO.
Do we have any choice in being in the second Adam? NO.
THAT is the glory of God!
THAT is reason to PRAISE HIM!
When I was lost in sin, God came and changed me. I was not responsible for knowing Him, He was.
As a consequence, I cannot condemn those who were living in the same darkness, because they DO NOT understand the darkness!
And I do not believe God will condemn them, because it is necessary for HIM to intervene in our lives! HE does the work, not us!!
( Romans 5:19 ) For even as, through THE DISOBEDIENCE OF THE ONE MAN… THE MANY were MADE SINNERS
so also, through THE OBEDIENCE OF THE ONE MAN… THE MANY will be MADE RIGHTEOUS.
This Scripture ( Romans 5:19 ) teaches that… THE MANY that were MADE SINNERS through ADAM …parallels… THE MANY that will be MADE RIGHTEOUS through CHRIST.
THE MANY in the FIRST HALF OF THE VERSE cannot mean LESS THAN ALL MEN because ALL MEN were MADE SINNERS and not SOME MEN.
Likewise… THE MANY in the SECOND HALF OF THE VERSE cannot mean LESS THAN ALL MEN because the Scripture is drawing an EXACT PARALLEL between THE MANY.
If… THE MANY in the SECOND HALF OF THE VERSE meant SOME MEN then THE MANY in the FIRST HALF OF THE VERSE must mean SOME MEN too.
That would mean… SOME MEN were MADE SINNERS and not ALL MEN which would be FALSE because ALL MEN were MADE SINNERS.
Therefore… THE MANY in the FIRST HALF OF THE VERSE must mean ALL MEN and THE MANY in the SECOND HALF OF THE VERSE must mean ALL MEN.
Thus… THE MANY that were MADE SINNERS through ADAM’S DISOBEDIENCE …represent… THE MANY that will be MADE RIGHTEOUS through CHRIST’S OBEDIENCE.
Does the term …ALL… in scripture mean…
ALL without EXCEPTION in every instance ( Nope ) … ALL KINDS OF in every instance ( Nope ) …OR… ALL within the CONTEXT in every instance ( Yes! )
THE MANY that were MADE SINNERS… ISN’T DESCRIBING …ALL MEN without EXCEPTION… because CHRIST is an EXCEPTION since HE ALONE was a SINLESS MAN.
THE MANY that were MADE SINNERS… ISN’T DESCRIBING …ALL KINDS OF MEN… because that suggests that among these there were SOME KINDS OF MEN which weren’t MADE SINNERS.
THE MANY that were MADE SINNERS… IS DESCRIBING …ALL MEN with the EXCEPTION OF CHRIST… because ALL MEN excluding CHRIST were MADE SINNERS.
The proposition that THE MANY = ALL KINDS OF MEN in Romans 5:19 …Is PROBLEMATIC because it suggests that…
ALL KINDS OF MEN were MADE SINNERS and that among these there were SOME KINDS OF MEN which were not MADE SINNERS.
BUT… scripture is clear that… ALL MEN have SINNED with the EXCEPTION OF CHRIST and that GROUP OF MEN …IS… THE MANY that were MADE SINNERS.
Romans 5:15-19 is declaring how THE EFFECTS OF CHRIST'S OBEDIENCE are MUCH GREATER than THE EFFECTS OF ADAM"S DISOBEDIENCE. It’s not drawing an EXACT PARELLEL between the two.
IF... THE EFFECTS OF ADAM'S DISOBEDIENCE extend ...FOREVER... and THE EFFECTS OF CHRIST'S OBEDIENCE extend ...FOREVER... it would be an EXACT PARALLEL and thus contradict scripture.
HOWEVER... THE EFFECTS OF ADAM'S DISOBEDIENCE don't extend ...FOREVER... AT ALL meaning ALL MEN that were MADE SINNERS as a result ...CANNOT ...REMAIN SINNERS... FOREVERMORE.
Being MADE SINNERS was the EFFECT OF ADAM'S DISOBEDIENCE. This cannot extend ...FOREVER... FOR ANY MAN or THE EFFECTS OF ADAM are EQUAL to THE EFFECTS OF CHRIST.
Moreover, IF … MOST MEN… will …REMAIN SINNERS …FOREVERMORE… while …SOME MEN… will be …MADE RIGHTEOUS… FOREVERMORE the EFFECTS OF ADAM are GREATER than CHRIST’S.
ALL MEN that were MADE SINNERS must be MADE RIGHTEOUS ...FOREVERMORE... or THE EFFECTS OF CHRIST'S OBEDIENCE don't EXCEED the EFFECTS OF ADAM'S DISOBEDIENCE.
IF... ALL MEN that were MADE SINNERS ...DON'T... REMAIN SINNERS... FOREVERMORE… and are thus ALL MADE RIGHTEOUS ...FOREVERMORE... then
THE EFFECTS CHRIST'S OBEDIENCE are FAR SUPERIOR TO and FAR GREATER THAN the EFFECTS OF ADAM'S DISOBEDIENCE because the ONE would be …FINITE… and the OTHER …INFINITE…
THE EXACT PARALLEL in Romans 5:15-19 is between the term ...THE MANY... and the term …ALL MEN… not between the ...GIFT... and the ...TRESPASS...
The ...GIFT... is not like the ...TRESPASS... ( Romans 5:15 ) because the EFFECTS OF THE GIFT are …MUCH GREATER… than the EFFECTS OF THE TRESPASS.
…THE MANY… that DIED through the TRESPASS …parallels… THE MANY… that the GIFT that came through the GRACE OF JESUS CHRIST …OVERFLOWS TO… which is …ALL MEN… ( Romans 5:15 )
…ALL MEN… that were …CONDEMNED… through the …TRESPASS… parallels …ALL MEN… that shall receive …JUSTIFICATION OF LIFE… ( Romans 5:18 )
BECAUSE… scripture doesn’t state that …ALL MEN… which were …CONDEMNED… is not like …ALL MEN… which shall receive …JUSTIFICATION OF LIFE… thereby
suggesting that the …ALL MEN… that were …CONDEMNED… is LESS than or GREATER than the …ALL MEN… which shall receive …JUSTIFICATION OF LIFE…
...THE MANY... that were ...MADE SINNERS... parallels ...THE MANY... that will be ...MADE RIGHTEOUS... which is ALL MEN ( Romans 5:19 )
BECAUSE… scripture doesn't state that ...THE MANY... that were ...MADE SINNERS... is not like ...THE MANY... that will be ...MADE RIGHTEOUS... thereby
suggesting that …THE MANY… that were …MADE SINNERS… is LESS than or GREATER than …THE MANY… that will be …MADE RIGHTEOUS…
Last edited by Striving4God; 06-18-2010 at 07:18 PM..
It doesn't mean ALL MEN without EXCEPTION recieve JUSTIFICATION because like you said CHRIST didn't need JUSTIFICATION.
It's ALL MEN with the EXCEPTION OF CHRIST that recieve JUSTIFICATION.
THE EFFECTS OF ADAM'S OFFENSE are FINITE, the EFFECTS OF CHRIST'S RIGHTEOUSNESS are INFINITE.
That is how the EFFECTS OF CHRIST'S RIGHTEOUSNESS far EXCEED and far OUTWEIGHT the EFFECT'S OF ADAM'S OFFENSE.
That is not the comparison that Paul is making (see comments on vv. 15-17 below). Your reasoning here doesn't work. Yes, the effects of Christ's righteousness outweigh the effects of Adam's offense, but that does not necessarily mean that those effects are all-inclusive.
Secondly, your reasoning does not work out because it renders Paul's contrast of the two utterly pointless. According to what you've been saying, in both cases "all" means "all with the exception of Christ." If both death and grace extended to all people with the exception of Christ, it would make no sense to say that grace is greater in this respect. Grace does not outweigh death in terms of the number of its recipients if grace and death have the same number of recipients (all). Therefore, Paul's comparison and contrast of the two must have been intended to indicate some other kind of outweighing than the number of recipients.
But what was that outweighing? Simply put, the outweighing means a surpassing in quality. Grace is much greater than sin. How so? Let's look at Paul's contrasts closely (using the NASB):
15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.
The grace in Christ exceeded the transgression. The grace abounded more than the death. How so? Verse 16 seems to clarify...
16 The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.
Note that here Paul is saying that the gift outweighs the transgression because it arose after many transgressions. Grace is so much the more glorious because it was in response to so many transgressions, whereas the judgment was in response to only one transgression. This is what he meant when he said in the previous verse that grace abounded much more.
17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
Again, the difference is in quality. In this case, the quality is that of the reigning in life for those who receive the grace and the gift of righteousness: "much more those...will reign in life." This is reinforced in v. 20: "The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."
Based on the above, we can conclude the following:
1) The parallel between Adam's sin and Christ's righteousness is not an exact one. Adam is a type of Christ, not a duplicate, and the righteousness of Christ exceeds the transgression of Adam.
2) The purpose of Paul's contrast is to emphasize the quality of the grace, not the number of recipients of that grace. It is quality that Paul wants to show by using this contrast, not scope.
3) Because of 1 and 2, it is highly premature to conclude that Paul is teaching universalism.
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It is the lost that are saved not the found that are saved. 
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