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The UR's are having a field day with this because of your personal beliefs, all the while refusing to solve the problem you have put forth!!!
Either Jesus paid the debt for our sins or not. sciotamicks is looking at it from a universalist P.O.V. The belief of UR's is that Jesus paid the debt for EVERYONE!!! So everyone is saved, but first must pay their debt to sin by this spiritual fire!! So sciotamicks is right!! Either Jesus paid our debt for us or we pay ourselves after we die. So which is it?? You cannot have both!! You all know my beliefs concerning the afterlife. I do not believe as sciotamicks does concerning ET, or the saving process!! But I do believe as he does concerning this!! It really is a legitimate question concerning WHO pays the debt owed........ us or Jesus????
I am interested in hearing from the UR's regarding this!!
No, I have read it. As you can clearly see from your own quotes as well as from mine, salvation is not unconditional. You say "EVERYONE who loves has been born of God and knows God", so that excludes those who don't love.
Either Christ paid for your sins forever, or you pay for them forever. There is no middle ground.
IT isn't a choice whether or not Christ paid for your sins... you can try to pay for them yourself but with man it is IMPOSSIBLE....
So there is no middle ground only that Christ paid for your sins forever!
Where do you get the "you pay for them forever" option anyway? WITH MAN it is IMPOSSIBLE to earn salvation...
You make light of Christ's sacrifice by stating that someone can do it for themselves after death... yet really they never pay off the debt if they are paying FOREVER...So again we are back to Christ's payment Once for all.
I think the phrase "paid for your sin" is ambiguous here and is not helping the discussion.
We can say that Christ "paid for our sin" on the cross.
We can also say that we "pay for our sin" in the sense that if I go get drunk out of my mind I will be "paying" for it tomorrow with a hang over or worse.
Wow, I believe so many have answered and explained how it is NOT a dual payment when someone is corrected/refined by fire.
the OP asserts that Jesus did NOT pay for everyone's sins because so many are sent to the Lake of Fire and therefore are experiencing the result of their unbelief.
Let me take a shot at this and see if it helps at all.
I go down and pay for someone's crime, I paid the initial cost of what was stolen,destroyed, whatever, PLUS the double or more restitution described in the law (for pain and suffering of the offended, etc.)
The criminal is now free to go. He will never be held accountable for that crime. But did my payment make that person good? One offender perhaps was pierced in the heart and did a 180 turnabout, resolving never to offend his fellow man again and to serve me for paying the debt he owed. This is well and good.
Another one knew I paid his debt, but doesn't care. He goes and steals again. Now in the example, he has incurred a second debt, but in scripture, Christ paid for ALL OF HIS sins. So he cannot again be charged with the crime, but he seriously needs a change in his heart. Then there are the offenders who somehow didn't know it was a crime or that they would ever be held accountable for it or that someone paid off his debt..
In the Jewish system, a man who fell into debt would sell his land under the terms of Jubilee (the proscribed period that one could lawfully sell his land for) and then become his servant. A near kinsman had the right to go to that new owner and pay off the debt of his kinsman. By law the new landowner could NOT refuse this arrangement. But, contrary to general opinion, the original landowner was NOT free to go back to the way things were, but had merely changed who he was indebted to. IT is possible, in human terms, that the nearer kinsman might be a harder taskmaster than the first master. Of course, Jesus is NOT. In theory, the nearer kinsman would be a better master.
So, though we are set free, we are not set free to live our life any way we choose, but we are merely changing masters. From the slavery of sin to the freedom of love in Christ.
The new master sets about to make us good servants. Some are not good servants as he indicated in quite a few parables. These servants will suffer loss in the upcoming kingdom age, but will NOT be sold back to the old master. He is STILL a servant of the king. This is a good and fair king, he will NOT send his servant to a torture chamber, but at times it may metaphorically feel like it.
Just because we have been set free from our debts, does NOT mean that we are now new creations, just by that act. As someone else pointed out, this old man has to die and it does not often go willingly, it kicks and screams and holds on as tight as it possibly can. Sometimes it takes drastic measures to kill him off and that is what the Lake of Fire (metaphorical and spiritual) is all about. Christ is a fair master. While his work may seem difficult and painful at the time, on retrospection we will agree that it was not more than was necessary to 'turn us' into the right path.
The Lake of Fire is not about payment for our debts. Christ already took care of that. It is about taking the pig that he has removed from the mud pit and making him presentable to live in the presence of the king. And with us, it's not simply a bath to clean the outer man, but the inside must be cleaned for it is what proceeds out of the heart that shows what a man is about. Therefore we must receive a new heart of flesh, replacing the old one of stone, and that can never be painless.
He is not dealing with all of his ransomed people at one time. Each one is dealt with in the proper order. Some he has chosen first (firstfruits/elect) to be rulers and leaders in his messianic age. But all will eventually see they had a debt, that Christ paid it, and become willing servants to their redeemer.
I hope that might help show a clearer picture to someone.
Based on the bold . . .YOU are the liar. You continually misrepresent UR with these lies. UR believes that Jesus paid for our sins and we are all saved from eternal separation from God already
Ok...someone finally addressed the OP somewhat.
Let's pick this apart:
Quote:
You seem to forget about our "works" (everything we actually "produce" in this life of ours in our consciousness that we take with us to the next one).
No. Remember...Full Preterist here....resurrection of the dead and the works judgement is over. Also, the epistles are very clear about eternal life and its inheritance, that is solely relies on Christ. Regardless of whether the works judgement is past or present, the PRE-REQUISITE for Heavenly Life is Christ.
Quote:
The stubble, hay, wood, and evil we produce must be dealt with before we can be in the presence of God.
1 Corithians 3 - ONLY relative to ministers of the faith, not the wicked.
So your usage of this idea is not only eisegesis, it is Un-Biblical.
Quote:
and every thing we fail to "cover" (or never believed in Jesus . . . or whatever) . . . must be refined out by "fire" and we will suffer loss . . . but all of us are still saved.
Here is the meat of the debate. You are proposing that mankind will be refined in fire, yet mankind was already refined through Christ's blood. His work on the cross took care of any blemish that might appear on man's, and a "second" refinement is not only ludicrous, it is Un-Biblical.
You have been corrected once again. You are flat out wrong in your theology, and as a matter of fact it is not theology, it is pagan philosophy influenced by Platonic thought and gnostic influence.
Your comments prove you believe that works will save you, that being a nice person is enough, but the Bible says nearly 200 times that the condition for salvation is faith, and works come through faith. See, faith is not 'works', faith is faith, and requires no works whatsoever.
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