Veganism: What is it? Is it unChristian to be a vegan? (beliefs, Jesus)

[firstborn888]

I wanted to create a thread that dealt with veganism and Christian veganism to keep the subject of abstaining from meat eating off the animal cruelty thread and to try and answer questions about the vegan lifestyle and what I know about it.

I am a practicing vegan but never gave it much thought until I was a 51 year old semi-retired man seeking to find God's perfect will for what I should be doing during my second half century of life (that was a couple of years ago).

The definition of "vegan" may vary slightly from place to place, but basically it is a personal belief that it is immoral to cause pain and agony to conscious living creatures to fulfill human needs - especially those needs which are not critical to survival and can be met without the inflicting of that suffering.

I have found Christians are a hard crowd to speak to about this because of bible literalism - we have God providing animal skins for clothes in Genesis and commanding the slaughter of livestock for sacrifices etc etc AND we have Paul's famous admonition:

1 Tim 4:2-3 "Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth".

Anyway, as time allows I would like to discuss, share and learn. It is a very complex issue. For example - how much torture do we think a monkey should be made to endure in hopes of finding a cure for a human disease? For how many hours, days, weeks, months, years of agony is it "okay" to inflict this torment even though the results may not even be helpful?

I must say, if my child needed a cure which could be found through extreme animal testing it would try my vegan beliefs. Personally, I would rather die a human than torture an animal to try and cure me. Again - big brave words which I may eat if my pain became great enough.

So - I am not here to judge or to call meat eaters "barbarians" (although I may think it ) but to have discussion on this issue that we, as the caretakers of this planet and those which have been put over God's creation should take seriously.

Just for the record - I do not think (for example) cows "watch in horror" as their fellow cows are hauled off to slaughter (as PETA once claimed) - they are cows for goodness sake - not people.

On the other hand, just because they are completely at our "mercy" and are "just animals" and do not understand what's going on - does that mean we have the right to mass breed and raise them in horrible conditions and mindlessly pay for their captivity/slaughter every time we shop for groceries or go to McDonalds?

I have started an animal cruelty thread for insights to meat industry abuse: //www.city-data.com/forum/chris...re-should.html

Again - I would like to keep vegan discussion off the abuse thread because it takes away from the subject of animal cruelty.

Discuss!

[firstborn888]

I can see you all are just chomping at the bit to get to into this one .

I understand - the apostle Paul didn't like folks getting into his dinner table either!

BTW - here's the link to the animal cruelty thread: //www.city-data.com/forum/chris...re-should.html

[ahigherway]

Hi firstborn888!
There is an expression that regards horses, "breaking the spirit."
we don't know what animals experience; however, a horse can be broken so that it can no longer perform.

I have seen dogs experience suffering of a fellow animal, and even shame.
So i personally believe that animals are not merely walking hamburgers, but creatures which have been made in Love and experience joy when treated correctly by man.

Regarding veganism,
i was once a vegetarian. Although i do now eat meat, i am eating less and less as time goes by. Here in Italy, there are many many foods which do not contain meat, and are wonderful!!

I don't think i can give up milk products, though...! -how do you do it?? You must be an extraordinary cook!!

Blessings,
brian

[firstborn888]

Originally Posted by ahigherway

Hi firstborn888!
There is an expression that regards horses, "breaking the spirit."
we don't know what animals experience; however, a horse can be broken so that it can no longer perform.

I have seen dogs experience suffering of a fellow animal, and even shame.
So i personally believe that animals are not merely walking hamburgers, but creatures which have been made in Love and experience joy when treated correctly by man.

Hard to tell what's going on inside an animal's head! Dog's definitely are full of affection and many animals can be extemely intelligent.

One thing I do know is that when I accidentally step on my dogs toe the reaction is very similar to mine (minus the cussing). Obviously they have a central nervous system which works as ours in many ways.

To breed animals in ever larger numbers and confine them in unnatural ways and to treat them as simple commodities and throw them around as one would throw an inanimate object - I suddenly saw the absurdity of that behavior.

Originally Posted by ahigherway

Regarding veganism,
i was once a vegetarian. Although i do now eat meat, i am eating less and less as time goes by. Here in Italy, there are many many foods which do not contain meat, and are wonderful!!

I don't think i can give up milk products, though...! -how do you do it?? You must be an extraordinary cook!!

Blessings,
brian

I was a big milk drinker but at the point at which my conscience awoke to all this (a couple of years ago) it didn't matter. When you understand that most dairy cows are artificially impregnated over and over and over and made to produce inordinate amounts of milk (painfully) as there young calves are sold for veil (many never even learning to walk) it's a horrendous practice.


YouTube - Meet Your Meat: cattle

Contrary to common belief - milk is not a good source of calcium either and has lots of hormones and pus as well:
MilkSucks.com: Got Pus?

Some vegetable sources have just the right ratio of calcium/magnesium for maximum absorption of calcium and without the mucous and hormones and fat associated with dairy products. And no cows suffer.

Yes - I miss ice cream, cheese etc but there are awesome substitutes. I actually like veganaise and non-dairy butter better than their dairy counterparts.

Follow Your Heart® - Home of Vegenaise® our dairy free eggless mayonnaise alternative with no cholesterol and non GMO

[stillkit]

God gave mankind dominion over everything on earth. That means it's ours to be used as we see fit.

Consequently, if you want to abstain from meats, that's fine, but I don't see how making it a spiritual issue will help, nor do I understand WHY it's a spiritual issue to you or anybody else. It's simply a matter of personal choice without any spiritual connotations.

And, I would remind you that Jesus told us to love our neighbors as we love ourselves. He did NOT say, love our animals as we love ourselves so, in my opinion, focusing on what happens to animals while human beings are still suffering is the wrong focus.

But, that's just my opinion.

[Ilene Wright]

Originally Posted by firstborn888

Yes - I miss ice cream, cheese etc but there are awesome substitutes. I actually like veganaise and non-dairy butter better than their dairy counterparts.

Follow Your Heart® - Home of Vegenaise® our dairy free eggless mayonnaise alternative with no cholesterol and non GMO

I didn't know there was such a thing as "vegenaise".....I'll have to try that. And the non-dairy butter. The thing is that being a vegetarian is much better for you health wise. I would miss cheese, I LOVE cheese....so are there any substitutes for it? Maybe you could share a few of your recipes with us?

[stillkit]

Originally Posted by Ilene Wright

I didn't know there was such a thing as "vegenaise".....I'll have to try that. And the non-dairy butter. The thing is that being a vegetarian is much better for you health wise. I would miss cheese, I LOVE cheese....so are there any substitutes for it? Maybe you could share a few of your recipes with us?

What is "non-dairy butter," if not margerine?

Frankly, I'd rather suck down a pan of bacon grease as put that stuff in my mouth. It's only a molecule or two removed from pure plastic. I can't see how that would be healthy.

[Ilene Wright]

Originally Posted by stillkit

What is "non-dairy butter," if not margerine?

Frankly, I'd rather suck down a pan of bacon grease as put that stuff in my mouth. It's only a molecule or two removed from pure plastic. I can't see how that would be healthy.

Well have at it.....I personally am interested in what FB has to say about it. And this is how "margarine" is spelled.

[stillkit]

Originally Posted by Ilene Wright

Well have at it.....I personally am interested in what FB has to say about it. And this is how "margarine" is spelled.

Thank you for the correction. I'm sure you feel much superior now having pointed out the shortcomings of my typing and/or spelling skills.

[Ilene Wright]

It's one of my pet peeves so don't do it again.