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That's not correct, but I don't blame you on this. If I understand you it's the Catholic priests in your area who have severely misled you. Or perhaps you innocently misinterpreted questions and discussions as rejections. Or you're confusing Limbo with Purgatory.
Be that as it may Purgatory certainly is still taught.
And what I find in the National Catholic Reporter, generally liberal, also doesn't generally seem to reject the idea.
The idea of Purgatory is a critical part of "All Souls Day." It's also seen as being referenced in the Book of Maccabees and other parts of the Catholic Bible.
Granted this issue matters more or less depending on how you see Catholicism. If you see Catholicism as a religion there's really no way they could abandon Purgatory altogether and they have not. However if you see Catholicism as a social organization, which I think many Catholics do, than no specific belief is vital. Probably not even the Resurrection or virgin birth because, from this mindset, Catholicism is more a culture than a religion. So if it's a culture what matters is that Catholicism remains community that runs hospitals, good schools, creates nice buildings, provides festivals, helps the poor, teaches people some universally agreed on virtues, and maintains other Catholic cultural features. (Music, painting, candles, etc)
Although I actually don't think that's simply a modern thing. I've been surprised by how often in the Middle Ages a great many people just went the "culture/community" route too. That's why they could switch to Anglicans or Lutherans or whatever. What mattered most to many was that "The Church", whatever "The Church" was, agreed to maintain the festivals, support services, and building projects they liked. They were either innocently ignorant or basically indifferent about the beliefs of a religion.
There are hundreds of doctrines that get very little attention for a variety of reasons and purgatory is one. It is not taught like it used to be and when was the last time you ever heard a priest mention praying for the souls in purgatory? Priorities in the faith are about resurrection not hell or some place in between. There are articles claiming that purgatory will eventually be dropped altogether when a new pope or Vatican council reviews the lack of theological soundness to the belief in purgatory.
Admittedly I am more liberal in my views of the Catholic church. An ex-girlfriend is Lutheran and I went to church with her, got to know her family including her older brother who is a Lutheran pastor. I think Lutheran and Episcopalians are Catholic "lite" and seem more focused on basic Christianity without some of the hang-ups we have [ie. celibate clergy, not allowing female priests, too much power in the papacy, etc.]. I honestly believe that the Orthodox church is closer to being the most historically "pure" Catholic in some ways.
The idea of being able to purify after death, that you get a second chance in a sense, is very important to me and is one of the more significant reasons I never switched to Eastern Orthodoxy.
Wow. It's very important to you....to YOU. It actually sounds like you're saying you are Catholic because it teaches something YOU believe in as true. Isn't that kinda like what Protestants are accused of doing....you know, picking a church because it teaches what THEY want to hear?
Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamingSpires
You seem to want a Catholic Church where the Magisterium tells you exactly what you want to hear, where it gives you everything you want and asks nothing of you.
Either you believe the Catholic Church was created by Christ to speak in time in matters of Faith and Morals through Peter, or you don't. Once you throw away Church authority you are no longer Catholic, you are a heretic. Plain and simple.
I guess that means the Eastern Orthodox are heretics...? I highly doubt you'll get them to believe that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by juj
Ted, your interpretation of the document is as false as your interpretation of Catholicism. You really don't have a clue. I bet you built your whole position on Catholism based on that text. Buddy, I hate to tell you, you got it wrong. So please re-position. (ding...you are now free to move about the cabin)
Iranaeus (Against Heresies, Book 3, Chapter 3, Verse 2)(probably written around 190 AD):
2. Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its preeminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere.
Oh, and the orthodox have it wrong, too.
At the risk of sounding like a troll, I'll repeat myself: Tell that to the Orthodox, and see how they respond in return. You will no doubt have a real debate on your hands. Why is it you guys don't do that...why don't you engage them in a debate about all this? Is it because you're afraid they might refute what you're saying? All you can say in return is "the Orthodox are wrong". Yeah...like saying that so easily will dismiss the whole matter.
In the meantime, reading all the stuff in this thread makes me wonder how the RCC has turned salvation into such a complex thing with its rules and regulations and all those documents you guys are quoting. It's literally enough to make a person scream. I thought Jesus said we were supposed to humble ourselves to become like little children. Funny how I think I would need the memory of an android and intelligence of a member of Mensa just to retain all the teachings that Catholics are supposed to adhere to and remember in order to be saved. Do you guys ever find time to take a quiet walk with the Lord and fellowship with Him? Or are you too busy spouting off about all the regulations that the RCC has issued?
Wow. It's very important to you....to YOU. It actually sounds like you're saying you are Catholic because it teaches something YOU believe in as true. Isn't that kinda like what Protestants are accused of doing....you know, picking a church because it teaches what THEY want to hear?
I guess that means the Eastern Orthodox are heretics...? I highly doubt you'll get them to believe that.
At the risk of sounding like a troll, I'll repeat myself: Tell that to the Orthodox, and see how they respond in return. You will no doubt have a real debate on your hands. Why is it you guys don't do that...why don't you engage them in a debate about all this? Is it because you're afraid they might refute what you're saying? All you can say in return is "the Orthodox are wrong". Yeah...like saying that so easily will dismiss the whole matter.
In the meantime, reading all the stuff in this thread makes me wonder how the RCC has turned salvation into such a complex thing with its rules and regulations and all those documents you guys are quoting. It's literally enough to make a person scream. I thought Jesus said we were supposed to humble ourselves to become like little children. Funny how I think I would need the memory of an android and intelligence of a member of Mensa just to retain all the teachings that Catholics are supposed to adhere to and remember in order to be saved. Do you guys ever find time to take a quiet walk with the Lord and fellowship with Him? Or are you too busy spouting off about all the regulations that the RCC has issued?
Then find me, us, a writing dating that old, that denies that fact.
Wow. It's very important to you....to YOU. It actually sounds like you're saying you are Catholic because it teaches something YOU believe in as true. Isn't that kinda like what Protestants are accused of doing....you know, picking a church because it teaches what THEY want to hear?
I agree that if it was merely important "to me" than it wouldn't be that important. It's real importance is in its history with the faith. Although I don't think I could believe in a religion that I don't believe in. I'm not sure how that even makes sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by californio sur
There are hundreds of doctrines that get very little attention for a variety of reasons and purgatory is one. It is not taught like it used to be and when was the last time you ever heard a priest mention praying for the souls in purgatory?
Depending on how you define it, an hour ago. Actually maybe less than an hour ago as Mass ended 6:20 Central Standard Time. Prayers for the dead were mentioned as they are mentioned in almost every Mass I've ever been to.
The word "Purgatory" itself probably every few weeks or once a month or something. Maybe more often. It's really not a belief that can be dropped, but I can concede that it's a belief that's misunderstood because Protestantism and Orthodoxy don't have it. (Although some Russian Orthodox, I think, do believe in something like Purgatory) Things that are uniquely Catholic are maybe seen as inauthentic or unreal for some.
I agree that if it was merely important "to me" than it wouldn't be that important. It's real importance is in its history with the faith. Although I don't think I could believe in a religion that I don't believe in. I'm not sure how that even makes sense.
Depending on how you define it, an hour ago. Actually maybe less than an hour ago as Mass ended 6:20 Central Standard Time. Prayers for the dead were mentioned as they are mentioned in almost every Mass I've ever been to.
The word "Purgatory" itself probably every few weeks or once a month or something. Maybe more often. It's really not a belief that can be dropped, but I can concede that it's a belief that's misunderstood because Protestantism and Orthodoxy don't have it. (Although some Russian Orthodox, I think, do believe in something like Purgatory) Things that are uniquely Catholic are maybe seen as inauthentic or unreal for some.
Praying for the dead is different than praying for those in a place that has no historic tradition or biblical support. Even Lutherans and Episcopalians pray for the dead at mass [and I'm positive the Orthodox do the same] but that is quite different than praying for someone who we have no idea if they are in a place called purgatory. It is an unnecessary doctrine and not supported by the ecumenical councils; our church tends to define things that are inconsistent with other "Catholic" Christians [those who are in the apostolic succession] and just separates us from the church at large. Purgatory is not a doctrine that gets a lot of attention or resentment from others but is just pointless in the importance of faith.
I can concede that it's a belief that's misunderstood because Protestantism and Orthodoxy don't have it. (Although some Russian Orthodox, I think, do believe in something like Purgatory) Things that are uniquely Catholic are maybe seen as inauthentic or unreal for some.
Some Protestants accept Purgatory. Episcopalians/Anglicans do, and there may be others too.
Praying for the dead is different than praying for those in a place that has no historic tradition or biblical support. Even Lutherans and Episcopalians pray for the dead at mass [and I'm positive the Orthodox do the same] but that is quite different than praying for someone who we have no idea if they are in a place called purgatory. It is an unnecessary doctrine and not supported by the ecumenical councils; our church tends to define things that are inconsistent with other "Catholic" Christians [those who are in the apostolic succession] and just separates us from the church at large. Purgatory is not a doctrine that gets a lot of attention or resentment from others but is just pointless in the importance of faith.
Why pray for the dead if they're in Heaven or Hell? The Orthodox do it, I think, because they believe they are in "soul sleep" or a waiting place for the Second Coming. Is that what you're saying?
I could go into big thing, but from a Catholic perspective you're wrong and okay I guess you're willfully wrong. For one I showed you the current Catechism, but there's more than that.
That shows the Orthodox, at the Council of Florence, objected to Catholic teaching on Purgatory but do not seem to have objected to the idea that some sins are forgiven after death. (Granted contemporary Orthodoxy tends to object to even that) That sight also lists the Biblical arguments for it. So a Purgatory, of some form, is maybe accepted on both sides at that point.
juj since you are so big on tradition what happened to the tradition of the people choosing their own bishop, and that the bishop would stay in that particular community permanently?
Ted, your interpretation of the document is as false as your interpretation of Catholicism. You really don't have a clue. I bet you built your whole position on Catholism based on that text. Buddy, I hate to tell you, you got it wrong. So please re-position. (ding...you are now free to move about the cabin)
Iranaeus (Against Heresies, Book 3, Chapter 3, Verse 2)(probably written around 190 AD):
2. Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its preeminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere.
Oh, and the orthodox have it wrong, too.
I do not see what your quote from a book that they don't know when it was written has anything to do with anything.
You seem to want a Catholic Church where the Magisterium tells you exactly what you want to hear, where it gives you everything you want and asks nothing of you.
Either you believe the Catholic Church was created by Christ to speak in time in matters of Faith and Morals through Peter, or you don't. Once you throw away Church authority you are no longer Catholic, you are a heretic. Plain and simple.
whatever
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and seem more focused on basic Christianity without some of the hang-ups we have [ie. celibate clergy, not allowing female priests, too much power in the papacy, etc.]. I honestly believe that the Orthodox church is closer to being the most historically "pure" Catholic in some ways.
