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Why pray for the dead if they're in Heaven or Hell?
Purgatory is neither heaven or hell.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R.
Yeah I seem to recall C. S. Lewis did, although I think it's more accepted on the Anglo-Catholic end of Anglicanism.
The first person who ever adequately explained Purgatory to me was an Episcopalian priest in New Mexico. So it isn't just High Church Anglicans. But looking at the current state of the Episcopal church in the United States these days, I'm not sure there are any set beliefs. They seem to be able to believe whatever they want. Or not.
Wow. It's very important to you....to YOU. It actually sounds like you're saying you are Catholic because it teaches something YOU believe in as true. Isn't that kinda like what Protestants are accused of doing....you know, picking a church because it teaches what THEY want to hear?
I guess that means the Eastern Orthodox are heretics...? I highly doubt you'll get them to believe that.
At the risk of sounding like a troll, I'll repeat myself: Tell that to the Orthodox, and see how they respond in return. You will no doubt have a real debate on your hands. Why is it you guys don't do that...why don't you engage them in a debate about all this? Is it because you're afraid they might refute what you're saying? All you can say in return is "the Orthodox are wrong". Yeah...like saying that so easily will dismiss the whole matter.
In the meantime, reading all the stuff in this thread makes me wonder how the RCC has turned salvation into such a complex thing with its rules and regulations and all those documents you guys are quoting. It's literally enough to make a person scream. I thought Jesus said we were supposed to humble ourselves to become like little children. Funny how I think I would need the memory of an android and intelligence of a member of Mensa just to retain all the teachings that Catholics are supposed to adhere to and remember in order to be saved. Do you guys ever find time to take a quiet walk with the Lord and fellowship with Him? Or are you too busy spouting off about all the regulations that the RCC has issued?
I did argue with an orthodox with this very text and he dismissed it outright saying essentially that Iranaeus was esstentially a Catholic buffoon. It's liking arguing scripture with protestants. The fact remains, Jesus appointed Peter as the head of his Church. Iraneus wrote "Against Heresies" towards the end of the second century. The orthodox churchES were just districts of the early Christian Church. The term Catholic, however, was already used by then. It was understood that The Chair of Peter was the head of all districts. Was Peter and his successors able to bind and loose as he saw fit as Jesus said he could or not. Again, if so, then Jesus was who he said he was. If Rome has it wrong, then Jesus was powerless or a liar. Neither of which would be good for Christianity.
In addition, the Orthodox Church doesn't exist in this world. There are orthodox churches. They talk to each other, but they are run independently. Is that what Jesus created, a bunch of autonomous churches? (Sound familiar?) Or did Jesus create ONE Church, His Church built on Peter in Rome? I prefer the second choice because it makes more sense AND it's referenced in the texts of the Early Church Fathers AND it's biblical.
I do not see what your quote from a book that they don't know when it was written has anything to do with anything.
It's from here: CHURCH FATHERS: Home Of course, you don't believe it. Neither did the Orthodox. People tend to ignore anything that is counter to what they believe in. I don't blame you for your position. It's a matter of survival. Unless, of course, you open your heart. Oh, and Iranaeus was not a small Early Church Father. He was important and he is a Catholic Saint. So that's Saint Iranaeus to you.
juj since you are so big on tradition what happened to the tradition of the people choosing their own bishop, and that the bishop would stay in that particular community permanently?
I'm not an expert on the subject, but from what I have read the neighboring bishop always had a big influence in the decision to choose another bishop. And by 325 AD, lay folks had very little influence. Besides, what would that change if you could choose your bishop other than the meltdown of faith and morals? Oh, but that's what you want. Honestly, how could that be a good idea? At the beginning of the church it was a necessity because of the lack of speedy communication and/or travel and there were so FEW other bishops so the layman had to get involved. Since orders come down from the Pope in matters of faith and not up from the lay folks, it wouldn't make any difference anyway. Besides if you had your way, the Catholic Church would have that same wonderful protestant tradition of removing their pastor when they heard something they didn't want to hear.
Everything you want the Catholic Church to do is already being done by a whole host of protestant churches. Why do you fight it so? Is it because deep down, you still believe that the Catholic Church is still the one true Church? If that's so, why do you fight them at every turn? Jesus either has and is protecting His Church, or He never has and He isn't doing it now. Do you think Jesus is protecting His Church or not? If so, then the Church must be right. If not, welcome to Atheism or at best Agnostism. I guess you could still be a Jew.
Trying to Fix the Catholic Church is equivalent to trying to Fix the Mafia!
yet another thread started by a disgruntled catholic-----instead of trying to "fix" a church to your liking go out and start your own, or find one that meets ALL your needs---as for me---i choose st. peter's church----the catholic church-----btw---all humanly run religions will be imperfect no matter what name they go by imho
Trying to Fix the Catholic Church is equivalent to trying to Fix the Mafia!
You are not alone in comparing the hierarchy of the Catholic Church as an organization that functions like the Mafia.
The head of the bishop-appointed National Review Board, former Oklahoma governor and a Catholic Frank Keating, had resigned, days after suggesting that the desire of some bishops to keep secret their investigations into the child sexual abuse scandal was Mafia-like. In an interview with the LA Times he said, "to act like La Cosa Nostra and hide and suppress, I think, is very unhealthy." He refused to apologize, and in his resignation letter, said, "My remarks, which some bishops found offensive, were deadly accurate. I make no apology.... To resist grand jury subpoenas, to suppress the names of offending clerics, to deny, to obfuscate, to explain away; that is the model of a criminal organization, not my church." Keating was appointed after the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops convened the board to investigate the abuse scandal in 2002.
And by 325 AD, lay folks had very little influence. .
the elections of St. Ambrose as bishop of Milan and St. Augustine as bishop of Hippo (4th and 5th centuries) by the acclamation of the people: “We elect him!” [“Nos elegimus eum!”] Later on Pope St. Celestine (d. 432 A.D.) said: “No one is given the episcopate uninvited. The consent and desire of the clerics, the people and leadership are required.” Pope St. Leo the Great (d. 461 A.D.) who faced down Attila the Hun and saved Rome from the sack wrote: “Let him who will stand before all be elected by all.” These principles from the early centuries of Christian practice were reiterated in various synods until at least as late as the Council of Paris in 829 A.D.
Basically the election of bishops by clergy and people remained in effect until the 12th century–over half the present span of Christianity. Even at the beginning of the United States of America, our first bishop, John Carroll, was, with the full approval of Rome, elected at least by all of the priests of the U.S.; he then proposed a similar election of all subsequent bishops in America–but Rome allowed the next two who were thus elected, but subsequently blocked his proposal.
Juj maybe you should research the truth instead of listening to all the lies being told to you by those in charge and from those neo-con bloggers
John England bishop of the Carolinas 1820 to 1840 governed his diocese with a constitution where the entire diocese had a say.
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