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Just thought Christians have more to worry about than free will Vs. non- free will
To the contrary. The most important decision that anyone will ever make in their life is to believe in Christ for salvation or not to. That is a volitional choice everyone must make. And the choice has eternal repercussions. Everyone must understand that they are responsible for how they choose.
The fella in that article doesn't know what he's talking about. Free will is simply the ability to make a choice between A, B, or C. It has nothing whatsoever to do with being free from outside influences. Just as a man can make a choce to commit a crime despite the fact that he knows the penalty for that crime if he gets caught, or he can choose not to commit the crime, so too can a man choose to come to Christ for salvation or refuse to do so despite the consequences which have been laid out in the word of God.
Instead of believing Scripture, many choose to believe some philosophical idea of what free will is. As long as you ascribe to a definiton of free will that is not warranted, you will of course continue to reject that free will - volition- is simply making a choice.
God extends the offer of salvation and man can say 'yes' or 'no'. That's all there is to it.
John 3:36 (A volitional choice) ''He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.'' The choice after understanding the issue through the Gospel message, and the results and consequences of the choice are laid out. The decision is up to the man.
Mike please read and understand the article if you want to comment on it.
Free will is not simply a choice between A, B, and C. A simple computer program can make that kind of a choice - are you saying a computer has free will?
Its not as simple as you continue to make it out to be.
Natural man CANNOT say 'yes' to God. Jeremiah tells us if you who are evil can choose God, then a leopard can change spots.
Jeremiah 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin
or the leopard its spots?
Neither can you do good
who are accustomed to doing evil.
Man will not choose Christ until and unless God draws him to Christ. Man cannot confess Christ as His savior unless the holy spirit causes him to do so.
John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
1 Cor 12:3 Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
So we see scripture tells us no one can do good naturally. No one can come to God, and no one can confess Jesus as their savior, except by the holy spirit.
Free will as in freedom to choose does not enter into it. Its up to God to draw, give His spirit and convert.
Romans 9:16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.
There are hundreds more scriptures that proclaim God's sovereignty in these matters.
To the contrary. The most important decision that anyone will ever make in their life is to believe in Christ for salvation or not to. That is a volitional choice everyone must make. And the choice has eternal repercussions. Everyone must understand that they are responsible for how they choose.
Mike,
The bible teaches the sovereignty of God in the matter of salvation over and over throughout. To say otherwise is to deny scripture.
“No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day (John 6:44).
And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me, unless it has been granted him from the Father” (John 6:65).
And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed(Acts 13:48).
And a certain woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul(Acts 16:14).
For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR? 35 Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN? 36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen (Romans 11:34-36).
But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, 31 that, just as it is written, “LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD” (1 Corinthians 1:30-31).
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus (Philippians 1:6).
He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit(Titus 3:5).
Fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God (Hebrews 12:2).
“You did not choose Me, but I chose you, and appointed you, that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask of the Father in My name, He may give to you” (John 15:16).
Those who are not saved yet are not yet saved because God has not chosen to bring them unto salvation- YET:
Then I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?” Then I said, “Here am I. Send me!” 9 And He said, “Go, and tell this people ‘Keep on listening, but do not perceive; Keep on looking, but do not understand.’ 10 Render the hearts of this people insensitive, Their ears dull, and their eyes dim, Lest they see with their eyes, Hear with their ears, Understand with their hearts, And return and be healed” (Isaiah 6:8-10).
And I saw one of his heads as if it had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed. And the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast; 4 and they worshiped the dragon, because he gave his authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast, and who is able to wage war with him?” 5 And there was given to him a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies; and authority to act for forty-two months was given to him. 6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, that is, those who dwell in heaven. 7 And it was given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them; and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him. 8 And all who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain” (Revelation 13:3-8).
“The beast that you saw was and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and to go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth will wonder, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come” (Revelation 17:8).
When a person believes ON Christ, it is because God has given them the heart to do so.
People exercise faith out of the heart God has given them to believe
Mike please read and understand the article if you want to comment on it.
I did read the article and I am commenting on it. The fella doesn't know what he is talking about.
Quote:
Free will is not simply a choice between A, B, and C. A simple computer program can make that kind of a choice - are you saying a computer has free will?
A computer program is created by man to operate within the design perimeters of the program. It doesn't think. It performs the function that it was designed to do.
Quote:
Its not as simple as you continue to make it out to be.
Yes it is.
Quote:
Natural man CANNOT say 'yes' to God. Jeremiah tells us if you who are evil can choose God, then a leopard can change spots.
Jeremiah 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin
or the leopard its spots?
Neither can you do good
who are accustomed to doing evil.
Man will not choose Christ until and unless God draws him to Christ. Man cannot confess Christ as His savior unless the holy spirit causes him to do so.
John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
1 Cor 12:3 Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
So we see scripture tells us no one can do good naturally. No one can come to God, and no one can confess Jesus as their savior, except by the holy spirit.
Free will as in freedom to choose does not enter into it. Its up to God to draw, give His spirit and convert.
Romans 9:16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.
There are hundreds more scriptures that proclaim God's sovereignty in these matters.
There is nothing mysterious or esoteric about how God draws man.
John 6:45 ''It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught of God.' He who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.
God draws man through the Gospel. 2 Thessalonians 2:14. 'And it was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Having heard the Gospel message which God the Holy Spirit made perspicacious to the spiritually dead unbeliever through His common grace ministry, it becomes the responsibility of the hearer to either believe the Gospel concerning Jesus Christ or to reject the Gospel.
Acts 31:16 ' Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved...' You must make the decision to trust in Christ for salvation. It is your responsibility. God extends the invitation and you either accept it or reject it. John 5:40 ''and you will not come to Me that you may have life.''
By God's sovereign decision, man's free will co-exists with God's sovereignty. Man's free will is the most basic issue in the angelic conflict.
The bible teaches the sovereignty of God in the matter of salvation over and over throughout. To say otherwise is to deny scripture.
“No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day (John 6:44).
And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me, unless it has been granted him from the Father” (John 6:65).
And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed(Acts 13:48).
And a certain woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul(Acts 16:14).
For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR? 35 Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN? 36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen (Romans 11:34-36).
But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, 31 that, just as it is written, “LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD” (1 Corinthians 1:30-31).
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus (Philippians 1:6).
He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit(Titus 3:5).
Fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God (Hebrews 12:2).
“You did not choose Me, but I chose you, and appointed you, that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask of the Father in My name, He may give to you” (John 15:16).
Those who are not saved yet are not yet saved because God has not chosen to bring them unto salvation- YET:
Then I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?” Then I said, “Here am I. Send me!” 9 And He said, “Go, and tell this people ‘Keep on listening, but do not perceive; Keep on looking, but do not understand.’ 10 Render the hearts of this people insensitive, Their ears dull, and their eyes dim, Lest they see with their eyes, Hear with their ears, Understand with their hearts, And return and be healed” (Isaiah 6:8-10).
And I saw one of his heads as if it had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed. And the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast; 4 and they worshiped the dragon, because he gave his authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast, and who is able to wage war with him?” 5 And there was given to him a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies; and authority to act for forty-two months was given to him. 6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, that is, those who dwell in heaven. 7 And it was given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them; and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him. 8 And all who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain” (Revelation 13:3-8).
“The beast that you saw was and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and to go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth will wonder, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come” (Revelation 17:8).
When a person believes ON Christ, it is because God has given them the heart to do so.
People exercise faith out of the heart God has given them to believe
P.S. Mike, do you understand that unless God reveals himself to a person, it is impossible for a person to KNOW Him? Who knows the things of the Spirit except for the Spirit of God? So a man must have the light of the Holy Spirit within to KNOW GOD, otherwise, it is IMPOSSIBLE for a person to know Him. It's actually kind of simple if you really think about it. God resists the PROUD and gives GRACE to the HUMBLE.
A computer program is created by man to operate within the design perimeters of the program. It doesn't think. It performs the function that it was designed to do.
Mike, you said, and I quote: "Free will is simply the ability to make a choice between A, B, or C." And I'm telling you a computer has the ability to make that choice. Yes it is due to the programming and input it receives, but it is indeed the computer that makes that choice. Computers make choices all day long, millions of times a second.
But how about this. One cat chooses to eat some food while another chooses to not eat the same food. Do cats have free will? According to your definition they do.
How about a mosquito. One mosquito chooses to fly to me and bite my arm. Another chooses to fly to you and bite your arm. Does a mosquito have free will? According to your definition they do.
So we see your definition of free will as "making a choice between A, B, or C" is really meaningless.
Quote:
There is nothing mysterious or esoteric about how God draws man.
John 6:45 ''It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught of God.' He who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.
God draws man through the Gospel. 2 Thessalonians 2:14. 'And it was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Having heard the Gospel message which God the Holy Spirit made perspicacious to the spiritually dead unbeliever through His common grace ministry, it becomes the responsibility of the hearer to either believe the Gospel concerning Jesus Christ or to reject the Gospel.
Acts 31:16 ' Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved...' You must make the decision to trust in Christ for salvation. It is your responsibility. God extends the invitation and you either accept it or reject it. John 5:40 ''and you will not come to Me that you may have life.''
By God's sovereign decision, man's free will co-exists with God's sovereignty. Man's free will is the most basic issue in the angelic conflict.
Why are you ignoring the plain scripture that refutes free will? Its like you are UNABLE to accept that there is no free will, thus indirectly improving my point.
MAN CANNOT DO GOOD ON HIS OWN, just as the LEOPARD CANNOT CHANGE ITS SPOTS! Do you get what this is saying? Can a leopard change its spots? NO it is unable. Can a man choose to do good of his own alleged "free will"? NO he is unable.
You bring up verses saying you must believe in Christ. That is fine. But no one can believe unless it is granted to them:
Phil 1:29 For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for him,
Did you catch that? Belief is granted - granted from GOD!
You are trying to say that a "free will" choice comes from the man himself, when it is clear that it is God who is directing, leading, granting, choosing and indeed causing a man to come to God.
Salvation is a complete work of God - none can boast.
You are boasting in your own salvation. That is what the "free will" doctrine leads to - it builds up pride in the individual for making a wise choice and credits the sinner with his own salvation - because he did make the right choice.
Mike, you said, and I quote: "Free will is simply the ability to make a choice between A, B, or C." And I'm telling you a computer has the ability to make that choice. Yes it is due to the programming and input it receives, but it is indeed the computer that makes that choice. Computers make choices all day long, billions of times a second.
But how about this. One cat chooses to eat some food while another chooses to not eat the same food. Do cats have free will? According to your definition they do.
How about a mosquito. One mosquito chooses to fly to me and bite my arm. Another chooses to fly to you and bite your arm. Does a mosquito have free will? According to your definition they do.
So we see your definition of free will as "making a choice between A, B, or C" is really meaningless.
Why are you ignoring the plain scripture that refutes free will? Its like you are UNABLE to accept that there is no free will, thus indirectly improving my point.
MAN CANNOT DO GOOD ON HIS OWN, just as the LEOPARD CANNOT CHANGE ITS SPOTS! Do you get what this is saying? Can a leopard change its spots? NO it is unable. Can a man choose to do good of his own alleged "free will"? NO he is unable.
You bring up verses saying you must believe in Christ. That is fine. But no one can believe unless it is granted to them:
Phil 1:29 For it has been grantedto you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for him,
Did you catch that? Belief is granted - granted from GOD!
You are trying to say that a "free will" choice comes from the man himself, when it is clear that it is God who is directing, leading, granting, and choosing when a man will come to God.
Salvation is a complete work of God - none can boast.
You are boasting in your own salvation. That is what the "free will" doctrine leads to - it builds up pride in the individual for making a wise choice and credits the sinner with his own salvation - because he did make the right choice.
Good posts you've got going here on this thread, legoman. Simple enough for anybody out there to understand.
P.S. Mike, do you understand that unless God reveals himself to a person, it is impossible for a person to KNOW Him? Who knows the things of the Spirit except for the Spirit of God? So a man must have the light of the Holy Spirit within to KNOW GOD, otherwise, it is IMPOSSIBLE for a person to know Him. It's actually kind of simple if you really think about it. God resists the PROUD and gives GRACE to the HUMBLE.
As I told you, this has already been addressed in Post #124.
As I told you, this has already been addressed in Post #124.
In this thread, or some other?
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