What is more powerful? (God's awesome saving power) (Gospel, preach, believe)
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Man's power to retain his sinful nature or God's power to remove man's sinful nature?
Of course it is in God's power to remove man's sinful nature. But that is not what eternal torment teaches. It teaches that God does not remove the sinful nature of the wicked but just rather let's them remain in their rebellion for the rest of eternity.
Let's get this fact straight - the scriptures teach that man will NOT and CANNOT be subject to the Law of God.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be
That essentially teaches that man will NOT relinquish His sinful nature of himself. Therefore, the ONLY way that man can lose his sinful nature is by FORCE. But what kind of force. By causing the man to discover his nature as sinful. This discovery can come by learning that your actions cause results that are contrary to prolonged life and happiness. The KNOWLEDGE is the force that God is subjecting us to. It is HIS Force by subjecting the man to have his own works produce an undesired result. Once the understanding comes that one's SELF is indeed evil, then can come true conversion.
I often ask those that claim to be Christians if they killed Christ. There response is usual full of shock that I would ask such a question. But indeed we are instructed to kill the passover LAMB. So that my answer to the question, if asked, would be "Yes!" I killed Christ. I'm GUILY of His death. It is when you have come to know yourself as Satan that you can finally understand that the mission of Christ was to remove YOUR works which ARE sin.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
God's Power is greater than ours. Let's find joy that He has purposed His Son to remove our sins. And let's be confident that His Son will not Fail in His mission to remove ALL sins. Such that there will not be ANY eternal rebellion (sinner). While man may be determined as he can be to retain his sinful nature - his own works will fail in light of God's awesome saving power.
God has purposefully limited Himself when dealing with mankind. He will only respond as we yield to Him.
James 4
[7] Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
[8] Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
It's up to us to submit to God; we are the ones to draw near to Him; once we do, then He will respond.
God has purposefully limited Himself when dealing with mankind. He will only respond as we yield to Him.
James 4
[7] Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
[8] Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
It's up to us to submit to God; we are the ones to draw near to Him; once we do, then He will respond.
Actually, that is not true. The persuasion to yeild to Him is His work.
Actually, that is not true. The persuasion to yeild to Him is His work.
It is true; God responds when we submit to Him.
Isaiah 59
[1] Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
[2] But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
[3] For your hands are defiled with blood, and your fingers with iniquity; your lips have spoken lies, your tongue hath muttered perverseness.
[4] None calleth for justice, nor any pleadeth for truth: they trust in vanity, and speak lies; they conceive mischief, and bring forth iniquity.
Until we are ready to get sin out of our lives, God keeps Himself withdrawn.
Man's power to retain his sinful nature or God's power to remove man's sinful nature?
Of course it is in God's power to remove man's sinful nature. But that is not what eternal torment teaches. It teaches that God does not remove the sinful nature of the wicked but just rather let's them remain in their rebellion for the rest of eternity.
Has God removed man's sinful nature? No, he has not, so temporary torment (UR) teaches a false message. God allows people simmer in sin, until they cry out to God and ask him to save them. See, God didn't create robots, who are pre-programmed to love God. He wants people to love Him out of their own free will, not because they are wired to do so.
Isaiah 59
[1] Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
[2] But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
[3] For your hands are defiled with blood, and your fingers with iniquity; your lips have spoken lies, your tongue hath muttered perverseness.
[4] None calleth for justice, nor any pleadeth for truth: they trust in vanity, and speak lies; they conceive mischief, and bring forth iniquity.
Until we are ready to get sin out of our lives, God keeps Himself withdrawn.
How would we come to Him if we didn't know Him? Now if we then know Him, then wouldn't the knowledge of Him be His revealing, thus His will?
Has God removed man's sinful nature? No, he has not, so temporary torment (UR) teaches a false message. God allows people simmer in sin, until they cry out to God and ask him to save them. See, God didn't create robots, who are pre-programmed to love God. He wants people to love Him out of their own free will, not because they are wired to do so.
No, he hasn't yet removed EVERYONE's sinful nature. But He will. I force my child not to run into the traffic. I would literally run into and force my child from great harm. That doesn't mean my child is a robot. God is going to force us away from our sinful nature.
Romans 10
[13] For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
[14] How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
[15] And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
[16] But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep
Now if we then know Him, then wouldn't the knowledge of Him be His revealing, thus His will?
It's His will for all to be saved, but they have to want to be saved.
God is going to force us away from our sinful nature.
Not true. Rev 21 the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
Does god FORCE people into salvation? No, of course not. Jesus himself said of the Jews who chose to reject Him:
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! (Matthew 23:37).
Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 08-22-2010 at 01:34 PM..
It's His will for all to be saved, but they have to want to be saved.
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