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When we look to see if the necessity of water baptism is necessary to be saved: then we should examine what is the condition to say when a believer is saved?
It should be obvious that when a believer receives the Holy Spirit, they are saved.
Since the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is when a believer is saved at salvation: then we should look to scriptures to see "if" water baptism plays an important part in that salvation process.
Acts 10:34-48 Although Peter commanded the Gentiles to be baptized with water afterwards, the scriptures proves that water baptism does not play a necessary part for anyone in receiving the Holy Ghost upon salvation. Notice how none came forward or even confessed Jesus Christ as their Saviour yet before the Holy Spirit came upon them and that was when they were believing what they were hearing.
We go back to Nicodemus' question on how one is born again and most believers would reference this conversation only so far as verse 12 of John chapter 3, but Jesus was still talking to Nicodemus and explaining how a person is saved after verse 12:
John 3:1-21 The conversation with Nicodemus actually ended at verse 21 before verse 22 states the stage where Jesus and His disiples had left for Judaea.
So after reading that: we see that when one is born again: there is no sign as to when that will take place, discounting water baptism as a definitive sign. It is by believing in Him is how one is saved.
In times passed, water baptism was a necessary public confession for Jewish converts dying to the Old Covenant before embracing the New Covenant: but later on, we see that even Paul dropped the necessity of water baptism when preaching the Gospel.
1 Corinthians 1:17For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
So water baptism isn't what saves a believer: Jesus Christ is: and it is Jesus Christ that baptizes every believer with the Holy Ghost upon salvation. Believing God and taking Him at His word is the answer of a good conscience towards God in regards to hearing the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
1 Peter 3:21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
By His grace, can a reader see that water is the putting away of the filth of the flesh by which Peter is saying that is not what saves, but the answer of a good conscience toward God in regards to the resurrection of Jesus Christ as confirmed in verse 9 of Roimans 10:8-13.
That is why all invitations points to Jesus Christ to have this life: not to water baptism nor to a church.
Jesus Christ is able to save as it is on Him to baptize every believer with the Holy Ghost upon salvation.
Anything else is just taking away the glory that is dued to His name, engaging in dead works that deny Him as able and thus labouring in unbelief.
One can stop labouring in unbelief by departing from the works that deny Him and return to their first love: the gospel which they have heard in the beginning regarding the hope that is in Jesus Christ.
Colossians 1:20-23 This is the faith which believers are to defend. He is the hope we are to rest in.
Yes, it is not water baptism that changes us. Yet even early believers did not all have the baptism in the Holy Ghost.
Acts 19:
1And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, 2He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
7And all the men were about twelve.
So who can say how and when the Lord may work in the man who He has created, changing his heart from a stone into a heart of flesh?
Proverbs says that "by mercy and truth, iniquity is purged." I believe that when we return to our Creator, He will speak the truth to us. And we will see His mercy.
Yes, it is not water baptism that changes us. Yet even early believers did not all have the baptism in the Holy Ghost.
Acts 19:
1And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, 2He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
7And all the men were about twelve.
So who can say how and when the Lord may work in the man who He has created, changing his heart from a stone into a heart of flesh?
Several facts are needed to be clarified from your scriptural reference.
These "certain" disciples were not believers in Jesus Christ to begin with.
Paul found that out by asking what baptism that these disciples were under. They had answered: John's baptism.
That was why they had never heard about the Holy Ghost.
Paul then went on to bear witness that Jesus is the Christ that John was preparing the way for.
Then these certain disciples became believers in Jesus Christ, and then they were baptized in Jesus' name.
They were not disciples of Jesus Christ before because the only water baptism they were associated with was the one John the Baptist was giving, but happily, Paul found an opportunity to share the gospel to these "certain" disciples which they then became believers in Jesus Christ and that they were baptized in His name afterwards.
Several facts are needed to be clarified from your scriptural reference.
These "certain" disciples were not believers in Jesus Christ to begin with.
Paul found that out by asking what baptism that these disciples were under. They had answered: John's baptism.
That was why they had never heard about the Holy Ghost.
Paul then went on to bear witness that Jesus is the Christ that John was preparing the way for.
Then these certain disciples became believers in Jesus Christ, and then they were baptized in Jesus' name.
They were not disciples of Jesus Christ before because the only water baptism they were associated with was the one John the Baptist was giving, but happily, Paul found an opportunity to share the gospel to these "certain" disciples which they then became believers in Jesus Christ and that they were baptized in His name afterwards.
Your post seems to me correct, Enow.
So now I ask, why did Paul have to lay his hands on them in order for them to receive the Holy Ghost? Would they have received it if he didn't lay hands on them?
It would seem that, if Paul had, for example, died, before he laid his hands on them, they would have not received it.
So now I ask, why did Paul have to lay his hands on them in order for them to receive the Holy Ghost? Would they have received it if he didn't lay hands on them?
It would seem that, if Paul had, for example, died, before he laid his hands on them, they would have not received it.
Or no?
The Book of Acts should not be used as a format for doctrines that are not otherwise stated plainly in letters to the early churches.
What I mean is...if there is no emphasis for the laying on of hands to the early churches for new believers to receive the Holy Ghost, then we should not take an account in the Book of Acts to imply that there is.
I'm not sure what the author meant by at salvation (perhaps the time at which we are saved) At any rate I believe we are saved by Christs blood
on the cross and we can't "add" to it via baptisms perceived "work". Nowmany christians believe we are "saved" by of course His shedding of blood.
but alsothe "command" to be born of water (baptism) and His spirit (filled with the spirit evidence of speaking in tongues (not to be confused with
the gift of tongues and interpretation). Acts 2:38-39 might be among the top five scriptures in all of the bible. "Repent and be baptized in the
Name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of our sins and you SHALL (as in SHALL!!!!!!) receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (infilling). This PROMISE
is for your children and ALL those FAR OFF (the gentiles!!) Hey thats me! Nevermind because so-called christianity bought off on Nicea and Constantine's little gig in 325 ad when RELIGION RELIGION RELIGION found that they could dump Jesus' Name for the TRIUNE formula Matt 28:19
"go out baptizing in the WHAT? THE WHAT? the NAME NAME NAME of the (titles) Father Son and Holy Spirit. Seems pretty logical and who would slight the Triune titles. Only problem is the Name He was referring to was HIS NAME Jesus Christ . And some of the people said .....amen I suppose.
Can someone say theres power in the ..........................NAME.!!!!!!! This issue has quasi-cursed christianity to a degree I believe Jesus must think mankind
is pretty goofey I'm going to ask Jesus why he never said helllloooooo! lol
I'm not sure what the author meant by at salvation (perhaps the time at which we are saved) At any rate I believe we are saved by Christs blood on the cross and we can't "add" to it via baptisms perceived "work".
Correct: at the time we are saved and that time is when we believe in the Son and thereby received the promise of the Spirit by Jesus Christ at salvation.
Quote:
Now many christians believe we are "saved" by of course His shedding of blood. but alsothe "command" to be born of water (baptism) and His spirit (filled with the spirit evidence of speaking in tongues (not to be confused with the gift of tongues and interpretation).
Whole heartedly disagree with you.
There si only one drink of the One Spirit and that happens at salvation:
1 Corinthians 12: 13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Thus there is only one baptism of the Holy Spirit as in there is only ONE hope of our calling as there is only ONE calling to respond to...and that is to the invitations Jesus has given to come to Himself.
Ephesians 4:4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Babbling prayer language is after the rudiments of the world and believers were warned not to believe every spirit but test them. The fact that to get this "tongue", one must seek another baptism of the Holy Spirit for that to happen is preaching another Jesus or another spirit to receive, thus ceasing to be that chaste bride of Christ....unless you repent.
2 Corinthians 11: 1Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me. 2For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.3But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.4For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
2 Timothy 2: 15Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness....24And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
Matthew 6: 7But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
Repent of this extra filling of the Holy Spirit because you are complete in Him. I know that these extra experiences are real, but I also know by the scriptures that it is not of the Lord.
Colossians 2: 5For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ. 6As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: 7Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. 8Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
There can be no continual filling if we are no longer leaky vessels.
Matthew 9: 17Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.
Would it not be honourable to bear witness of the Son in what He has done rather than go chasing after signs and wonders that deny Him?
Water baptism is what the Bible calls John the baptists, Baptism....... Which is important for our conversion to Christ , which proves to Heaven of our willingness to turn from sin then and even later as the world is full of sin that can come back that we msut resist again and again and during this process Lord Jesus will see our Heart and our willingness to resist and the willing to Love the Lord .... Water baptism is our proof
Water baptism is what the Bible calls John the baptists, Baptism....... Which is important for our conversion to Christ , which proves to Heaven of our willingness to turn from sin then and even later as the world is full of sin that can come back that we msut resist again and again and during this process Lord Jesus will see our Heart and our willingness to resist and the willing to Love the Lord .... Water baptism is our proof
How is it you can believe that God knows what is in our hearts and minds . . . and simultaneously believe there is something we must do to PROVE to God what is in our hearts and minds?
Water baptism is what the Bible calls John the baptists, Baptism....... Which is important for our conversion to Christ , which proves to Heaven of our willingness to turn from sin then and even later as the world is full of sin that can come back that we msut resist again and again and during this process Lord Jesus will see our Heart and our willingness to resist and the willing to Love the Lord .... Water baptism is our proof
It is true that with the Good Lord's help as Our Good Shepherd that we are to continually turn from sin and resist temptations, but that is an ongoing daily action that cannot be said as being all done at water baptism.
I am sure you are not meaning that we are to have water baptism every time we turn from sin and resist temptations.
Believers have gone astray after water baptism and so having water baptism isn't solid proof of an ongoing following of Jesus Christ.
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The Baptism Jesus Gives At Salvation
