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Old 12-27-2011, 10:24 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheoGeek View Post
What about evil, immoral, horrible people that offend and hate the infinitely holy and just God?
Didn't we all kill Christ? What does that make us?
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Old 12-27-2011, 10:50 AM
 
Location: NC
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God teaches us to love our enemies and to do good to those that hate us. He is love, and will do no less for His enemies. Will this involve judgment and correction, yes, I believe so. All will be made subject to Him, as all were made for Him and all belong to Him. Every knee will bow and every tongue confess the Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. God bless.
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Old 12-27-2011, 11:05 AM
 
Location: NC
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“The nations are gathered to the Judgment, that on them may be poured out an the wrath of the fury of the Lord, and this in pity and with a design to heal.... in order that every one may return to the confession of the Lord, that in Jesus’ Name every knee may bow, and every tongue may confess that He is Lord. All God's enemies shall perish, not that they cease to exist, but cease to be enemies.”

Jerome on Zephaniah 3:8-10

Zephaniah 3:8-10

8 “Therefore wait for Me,” declares the LORD,
“For the day when I rise up as a witness.
Indeed, My decision is to gather nations,
To assemble kingdoms,
To pour out on them My indignation,
All My burning anger;
For all the earth will be devoured
By the fire of My zeal.
9 “For then I will give to the peoples purified lips,
That all of them may call on the name of the LORD,
To serve Him shoulder to shoulder....



God bless.


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Old 12-27-2011, 11:17 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown View Post
“The nations are gathered to the Judgment, that on them may be poured out an the wrath of the fury of the Lord, and this in pity and with a design to heal.... in order that every one may return to the confession of the Lord, that in Jesus’ Name every knee may bow, and every tongue may confess that He is Lord. All God's enemies shall perish, not that they cease to exist, but cease to be enemies.”

Jerome on Zephaniah 3:8-10

God bless.
Wow, that's an interesting commentary from Jerome.
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Old 12-27-2011, 11:23 AM
 
Location: NC
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Many of those considered to be church fathers in the early church held to this belief and some who had this belief, still taught eternal hell to the masses. It is not known how many actually held the belief from what I understand. God bless.

More info

The Church Fathers on Universalism

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 12-27-2011 at 11:56 AM..
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Old 12-27-2011, 12:08 PM
 
Location: San Antonio
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22For as in Adam all die(do you believe this part?), even so in Christ shall all be made alive (how about this part).

23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. (WOW)

Why did Paul suffer?
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. (1tim4:10)

What did Paul command timothy to teach? he told timothy to teach what was just written in 1tim4:10
These things command and teach (1tim4:11)
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Old 12-27-2011, 01:12 PM
 
Location: NC
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Amen. God bless.
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Old 12-27-2011, 02:47 PM
 
Location: Florida
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Why would God choose the words like "destroy, destruction, perish, death" to signify something other than their plain meaning?

* Psalm 92:7 ...................shall be destroyed forever....
* Psalm 1: 6 ....................be the way of the ungodly shall perish
* Matthew 10:28 ..............rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell
* John 3:16 .....................whosoever believeth in him should not perish (Greek: destroyed)
* Romans 6:23 ................For the wages of sin is death
* James 4:12 ....................There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy
* Philippians 3:19 .............Whose end is destruction
* 2 Thessalonians 1:9 ........Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction
* Hebrews 10:39 ...............But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition (Greek: destruction); but of them that believe to the saving of the soul
* Revelation 20:14 ..............This is the second death.

Is God trying to intentionally deceive us by using words that have a different meaning than what their plain meaning is? Isn't this a basic rule of hermeneutics? The literal meaning is the first meaning used unless context declares otherwise. Don't you have to redefine every single one of these words in order to get eternal torment as the final fate of the unsaved?

Again, William West summarizes this point beautifully when he states....

The present definitions of words must be destroyed and new definitions given. The new definitions end up being the opposite of the old definition, death is no longer death; it is eternal life in Hell. No other book in the world uses these words this way. Did God use words in a way that would be a deliberate misleading of mankind? They are not used with these meaning in our everyday language. When we say anything, a plaint, animal or person is dead, we do not mean that plaint, animal or person is alive and being tormented.

Death (and destruction) must be made to mean one thing when it is a plaint or animal that is dead and another when it is a person that is dead. I somehow missed the revelation by which they know this. Where is the book, chapter and verse for it? Is there any word God could have used that they would not say "it does not mean what it says"? No, nota one if it would conflict with their theology.

"My mind fails to conceive a grosser misinterpretation of language then when the five or six strongest words which the Greek tongue possesses, signifying 'destroy,' or 'destruction,' are explained to mean maintaining an everlasting but wretched existence. To translate black as white is nothing to this" (R. F. Weymouth, Life In Christ, page 365, translator of "The New Testament in Modern Speech.")


Those who wrongly believe in immortality for all from birth must reinterpret the Bible to say:

1. Those who are destroyed are not destroyed. [James 4:12; 2 Peter 2:12; 2 Peter 3:7].
2. Those who perish do not perish. [1 Corinthians 1:8: John 3:16].
3. Those who die do not die. [Romans 6:23] [Death is not death].
4. The end of the wicked is not really their end. [Philippians 3:19; Hebrews 6:8].
5. Those who are consumed are not consumed [Hebrews 10:27].
6. Mortals are born immortal; [1 Timothy 6:16] therefore, how can there be any such thing as being mortal? There are no mortals and could never be a mortal if all men are created immortal.
7. The second death is not a death; it is eternal life with torment [Revelation 21:8].
. Are they really teaching the Bible when they corrupt it into saying the opposite of what it really says, or teaching what they want the Bible to say? (The Resurrection and Immortality, William West, Xulon Press, 2006, various excerpts from chapter two. See www.robertwr.com for more information. )

go to www.jewishnotgreek.com for much, much more truth !
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Old 12-27-2011, 03:56 PM
 
Location: NC
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The scriptures provide many examples of how things are destroyed, yet the condition is not permanent or does not mean annihilation.

For example, Peter tells us in 2 Peter 3:



10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and [b]its works will be [c]burned up. 11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! 13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.


2 Peter 3

3 Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation.” 5 For [a]when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6 through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. 7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

The earth was destroyed but it still remained.


Hebrews 1 (caps from the translatio)

10 And “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
11 THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;
AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT,
12 AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;
LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED.
BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,


They perish in order to be changed, does not mean annihilation


Luke 19
10 For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was *lost.”

lost= apollumi or apolluo= to kill, destroy, be destroyed, perish


They are not annihilated if Jesus is seeking them.


Matthew 27:20
20 But the chief priests and the elders persuaded the crowds to ask for Barabbas and to put Jesus to* death

*death= apollumi or apolluo= to kill, destroy, be destroyed, perish


Jesus died. He was not annihilated


1 Corinthians 5:6

5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.



Notes
the word “destruction,” as used in Scripture, never means annihilation. Take for instance the words of the xcth Psalm, “Thou turnest man to destruction: again Thou sayest, Come again, ye children of men.” Can “destruction” here be annihilation? Is it not rather that dissolution which must take place if fallen creatures are ever to be brought back perfectly to God's kingdom. So again, Job says, (chapt. xix. 10,) “He hath destroyed me on every side, and I am gone”; and again, (chapt. ix. 22,) “This one thing I said, He destroyeth the perfect and the wicked.” But does he mean to say that he is brought to non-existence, or that the “perfect” will be so destroyed, that they will exist no longer? So, again, St. Peter says, (2 Ep. iii. 6,) “The world that then was perished.” So, again, of the present heavens and earth it is said, (Heb. i. 11, 12,) “They shall perish, . . . and be changed.” So, again, both of Israel and Jerusalem it is said, (Deut. xxx. 18; Jer. xii. 17; xv. 6 that they shall be “destroyed” and “perish.” But does any one suppose that therefore they will be annihilated? So, again, as to the expression, “them that perish,” sometimes translated “the lost”; (see 2 Cor. iv. 3; 1 Cor. i. 18; 2 Cor. ii. 15 do we not know that these “lost,” though they “perish,” still exist, and exist both as “lost” ones and “saved” ones, as text on text will testify abundantly. So as to the righteous, in the well-known passage of Isaiah; (chapt. lvii, 1 “The righteous “perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart”;--is this “perishing” non-existence? So, again, where we read, in Psalm lxxxiii. 16-18, “Fill their faces with shame, that they may seek thy name, O Lord: let them be confounded and troubled for ever; yea, let them be put to shame and perish; that men ” (literally “ they ,” for the word “ men ” is not in the Original,) “may know that Thou, whose name is Jehovah, art the Most High over all the earth;”—men are to be “confounded for ever and perish, that they may know Jehovah.”
So as to the question, “Wilt Thou shew wonders to the dead? Shall the dead arise and praise Thee? Shall thy loving-kindness be declared in the grave, or they faithfulness in destruction?”—is the true answer, Yes, or No? Is not the “losing” or “destruction” of our fallen life the only way to a better one? Does not our Lord Himself say more than once, (S. Matt. x. 39; xvi. 25; S. John xii. 25 that the way to “save our life,” or “soul,” is to “lose it,” or “have it destroyed,” in its fallen form, that it may be re-created

Ref: The Restitution of All Things

God bless.

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 12-27-2011 at 05:05 PM..
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Old 12-27-2011, 03:57 PM
 
Location: NC
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Sorry about the winks, it just came out like that with the type. I will try to erase them. God bless.
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