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Hot, it was you who said "Most Christians have no idea what Romans 13 is saying. It isn't talking about governments, it is talking about elders, and Christ as King."
But I proved it is not talking about elders and Christ as King.
Really?
13:1 Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities.
Look the word up, governing. It means Higher. Higher Authority=who??
Oh, and in case you want to try and use authority as something unGodly or unholy, try this verse on for size:
And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "ALL AUTHORITY has been given to Me in heaven and on earth."
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Due to the very nature of paying taxes and tribute (that is what Paul said in Romans 13)
We will get back to this.
2 Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves.
Why would resisting an unholy government be a bad thing? It would not, would it??
Submit therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.
What, this does not mean those kingdoms which he claimed were his? Really?
Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.
What is a minister? Let us look, ok.
1) one who executes the commands of another, esp. of a master, a servant, attendant, minister a)the servant of a king b)a deacon, one who, by virtue of the office assigned to him by the church, cares for the poor andhas charge of and distributes the money collected for their use c) a waiter, one who serves food and drink
So, why would a minister need money?
I would say you are WAYYYY off in your thinking.
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and obeying magistrates with swords proves this is
talking about Governments and not churches or elders.
Well, I disagree. Ever see people ministering to the needs of the people, while openly carrying guns? I have.
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Hot, it would look better if you just said you were wrong and learned from your mistake.
IF, I was wrong, I would be the first to admit it. I have been wrong about many things before, like UR and ET. This, absolutely NOT. I actually studied this for years now, and there is no way I am wrong.
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God set Hitler and Stalin and Pol Pot and every American president over us.
No, God gave the people their wish. 1 Samuel 8
He always does.
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Christians in each respective country are not to fight those who are over them in their government.
No, they are to turn the 'other cheek'. Anarchy is not an option, but simple resistance is ALWAYS the best. No, means NO.
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They are to pay their taxes and tribute and obey the magistrates.
They are to be charitable. Not forced through theft.
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Paul never said you only had to obey Governements that were Godly.
Paul never said you have to obey ANY government, except the Higher Authority, which is Jesus the Risen Christ.
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There were no "Godly" governments in Paul's day.
Then Jesus doesn't reign, as King, according to YOU. For me, and my house, He does.
Hot, Paul and the churches did not pay taxes and tribute to any church. It was always to governments. You are just plain wrong.
We are to obey governments.
If the kingdoms of this world have become Christ's as you point out then that is even more reason to be obedient to all the kingdoms of this world and pay taxes to whom taxes are due and tribute to whom tribute is due and obey magistrates.
I think this ties into the thread I started called "God is in control of all things".
Take for example Hitler. Certainly God could have stopped Hitler, yet He did not. Troubling... unless you can realize that God really is in control and CAN work things out for a greater good. I don't know how that can be done, but I trust God can do it. And there are examples in scripture where God does this: Joseph and his brothers who throw him into slavery is an excellent one - because of the evil thing Joseph's brothers did, joseph ended up saving his entire country years later...
And yes, the devil is in charge of all the 'kingdoms of the world' - but who controls the devil? Can the devil do anything he wants, or only what God allows?
legoman you are right that God is always in control of his creation and every leader who ever was, was who God wanted to be there at that time.
I'm not vain enough to try to figure out why Hitler, Stalin and other like them were needed to be but they were or God would not have put them where they were. I don't always understand God's way but I do know that as Joseph said He always mean them for good in the end.
I trust in God and his plan ,as he is perfect, and since he has seen the end before the beginning he knows everything that is needed to complete his creation and make us into his image.
Besides, there have been quite a few presidential candidates who got the popular majority vote but didn't become president. God places the people He wants to be president on the list and God gets his canditate in. George Bush and the hanging chads incident is a good example. He was God's choice good or bad, like it or not.
I agree, but on another related note - is WikiLeak God's plan to blow the top off our secrets?
Last edited by Miss Blue; 12-07-2010 at 04:45 PM..
Reason: fixed "LikiLeak" :)
Well, I remember my dh thought Richard (tricky dick) Nixon was Gods gift..I disagreed. Then he thought it was George W..and I disagreed again
But then most people do disagree about religion and politics
Bottom line afai am concerned is that none of us know the mind of God or just how involved he is in our everyday lives ...unless we invite Him to be part of our personal everyday lives..Then we have to be patient and listen to Him..I just do not think people as a nation do that..Personally I think when we mess up it is our fault, not Gods "mysterious plan"
...Oh, and in case you want to try and use authority as something unGodly or unholy, try this verse on for size....
Actually, scripture uses the term authority in a variety of ways. And often with regards to ungodly people who have it's power: The word we translate as authority is the Greek word ἐξουσία, and has the meaning of:
Permission, authority, right, liberty, power to do something. And this authority, or power, is often used by evil people. Here are two examples:
Authority from the Chief priests was given to Paul to persecute the followers of Christ:
Act 26:11 and in every synagogue, often punishing them, I was constraining them to speak evil, being also exceedingly mad against them, I was also persecuting them even unto strange cities.
Act 26:12 `In which things, also, going on to Damascus--with authority and commission from the chief priests--
Authority was given by God, to Pilate, to either crucify or release Jesus:
Joh 19:10 Pilate, therefore, saith to him, `To me dost thou not speak? hast thou not known that I have authority to crucify thee, and I have authority to release thee?'
Joh 19:11 Jesus answered, `Thou wouldest have no authority against me, if it were not having been given thee from above; because of this, he who is delivering me up to thee hath greater sin.'
And yet Paul, knowing firsthand that this authority is often used by evil people, nonetheless instructs everyone, including Christians, to be subject to these higher authorities:
Rom 13:1 Let every soul to the higher authorities be subject, for there is no authority except from God, and the authorities existing are appointed by God,
Notice that the term "higher authorities" is used in the plural. There are many higher authorities being spoken of. And these higher authorities are appointed by God. Christ himself, who has all authority (singular), is said to appoint these higher authorities (plural) here on earth. This concept is also clearly taught in the OT:
Pro 8:15 By me kings reign, and princes decree righteousness,
Pro 8:16 By me do chiefs rule, and nobles, All judges of the earth.
Dan 2:21 And He is changing times and seasons, He is causing kings to pass away, and He is raising up kings; He is giving wisdom to the wise, and knowledge to those possessing understanding.
Dan 4:17 by the decree of the sifters is the sentence, and by the saying of the holy ones the requirement, to the intent that the living may know that the Most High is ruler in the kingdom of men, and to whom He willeth He giveth it, and the lowest of men He doth raise up over it.
Christ, being God, is clearly the One who appoints these authorities (plural) over all men, including Christians. Even though these authorities are often used by evil people, Christ appoints these authorities for the common good (and often chastisement) for all.
Actually, scripture uses the term authority in a variety of ways. And often with regards to ungodly people who have it's power: The word we translate as authority is the Greek word ἐξουσία, and has the meaning of:
Permission, authority, right, liberty, power to do something. And this authority, or power, is often used by evil people. Here are two examples:
Authority from the Chief priests was given to Paul to persecute the followers of Christ:
Act 26:11 and in every synagogue, often punishing them, I was constraining them to speak evil, being also exceedingly mad against them, I was also persecuting them even unto strange cities.
Act 26:12 `In which things, also, going on to Damascus--with authority and commission from the chief priests--
Authority was given by God, to Pilate, to either crucify or release Jesus:
Joh 19:10 Pilate, therefore, saith to him, `To me dost thou not speak? hast thou not known that I have authority to crucify thee, and I have authority to release thee?'
Joh 19:11 Jesus answered, `Thou wouldest have no authority against me, if it were not having been given thee from above; because of this, he who is delivering me up to thee hath greater sin.'
And yet Paul, knowing firsthand that this authority is often used by evil people, nonetheless instructs everyone, including Christians, to be subject to these higher authorities:
Rom 13:1 Let every soul to the higher authorities be subject, for there is no authority except from God, and the authorities existing are appointed by God,
Notice that the term "higher authorities" is used in the plural. There are many higher authorities being spoken of. And these higher authorities are appointed by God. Christ himself, who has all authority (singular), is said to appoint these higher authorities (plural) here on earth. This concept is also clearly taught in the OT:
Pro 8:15 By me kings reign, and princes decree righteousness,
Pro 8:16 By me do chiefs rule, and nobles, All judges of the earth.
Dan 2:21 And He is changing times and seasons, He is causing kings to pass away, and He is raising up kings; He is giving wisdom to the wise, and knowledge to those possessing understanding.
Dan 4:17 by the decree of the sifters is the sentence, and by the saying of the holy ones the requirement, to the intent that the living may know that the Most High is ruler in the kingdom of men, and to whom He willeth He giveth it, and the lowest of men He doth raise up over it.
Christ, being God, is clearly the One who appoints these authorities (plural) over all men, including Christians. Even though these authorities are often used by evil people, Christ appoints these authorities for the common good (and often chastisement) for all.
legoman you are right that God is always in control of his creation and every leader who ever was, was who God wanted to be there at that time.
I'm not vain enough to try to figure out why Hitler, Stalin and other like them were needed to be but they were or God would not have put them where they were. I don't always understand God's way but I do know that as Joseph said He always mean them for good in the end.
I trust in God and his plan ,as he is perfect, and since he has seen the end before the beginning he knows everything that is needed to complete his creation and make us into his image.
Looks like you have a good understanding sschulz! Welcome to the forums...
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Excellent post AlabamaS! 
