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Actually, scripture uses the term authority in a variety of ways. And often with regards to ungodly people who have it's power: The word we translate as authority is the Greek word ἐξουσία, and has the meaning of:
Permission, authority, right, liberty, power to do something.
Hmm, permission, authority, right, liberty, power to do something? Authority is listed as 1 definition, yet you give it as a blanket to ALL verses? I am not denying Romans 13 is talking about authority, but you are dead wrong in your assumption.
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And this authority, or power, is often used by evil people. Here are two examples: Authority from the Chief priests was given to Paul to persecute the followers of Christ:
Act 26:11 and in every synagogue, often punishing them, I was constraining them to speak evil, being also exceedingly mad against them, I was also persecuting them even unto strange cities.
Act 26:12 `In which things, also, going on to Damascus--with authority and commission from the chief priests--
Actually, this is irrelevant. Even the Centurion had authority, so does it matter? Even I have authority in my business, but again, what is the relevance?
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Authority was given by God, to Pilate, to either crucify or release Jesus:
Joh 19:10 Pilate, therefore, saith to him, `To me dost thou not speak? hast thou not known that I have authority to crucify thee, and I have authority to release thee?'
Joh 19:11 Jesus answered, `Thou wouldest have no authority against me, if it were not having been given thee from above; because of this, he who is delivering me up to thee hath greater sin.'
God did not give authority to Pilate over Jesus. The ONLY authority over Jesus was His Father.
Jesus ONLY did the will of the Father, and ONLY His authority was OVER Him, yet the Father GAVE Jesus ALL Authority, which I have already explain in the previous post. Why deny this?
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And yet Paul, knowing firsthand that this authority is often used by evil people, nonetheless instructs everyone, including Christians, to be subject to these higher authorities:
Rom 13:1 Let every soul to the higher authorities be subject, for there is no authority except from God, and the authorities existing are appointed by God,
Notice that the term "higher authorities" is used in the plural. There are many higher authorities being spoken of. And these higher authorities are appointed by God. Christ himself, who has all authority (singular), is said to appoint these higher authorities (plural) here on earth. This concept is also clearly taught in the OT:
Pro 8:15 By me kings reign, and princes decree righteousness,
Pro 8:16 By me do chiefs rule, and nobles, All judges of the earth.
Dan 2:21 And He is changing times and seasons, He is causing kings to pass away, and He is raising up kings; He is giving wisdom to the wise, and knowledge to those possessing understanding.
Dan 4:17 by the decree of the sifters is the sentence, and by the saying of the holy ones the requirement, to the intent that the living may know that the Most High is ruler in the kingdom of men, and to whom He willeth He giveth it, and the lowest of men He doth raise up over it.
While all this sounds pretty, it is NOT biblically sound. Back in the OT times, there were many kings, and people who were put into place by God to bring in the New Covenant. When Jesus SAT DOWN, on the THRONE, then we have but 1 King. And only 1 King. We do NOT serve other masters, for we have but 1 Master.
You all can serve other rulers, if this is your choice. It is not mine, nor my household's. God rules, period. Christ is King, now. God, BTW, has also protected my family, from this present evil ruling over the hearts of mankind.
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Christ, being God, is clearly the One who appoints these authorities (plural) over all men, including Christians.
He has given this to HIS FOLLOWERS, not those who are not His. The devil gives them their power.
'He who overcomes, and he who keeps My deeds until the end, TO HIM I WILL GIVE AUTHORITY OVER THE NATIONS; AND HE SHALL RULE THEM WITH A ROD OF IRON, AS THE VESSELS OF THE POTTER ARE BROKEN TO PIECES, as I also have received authority from My Father;
Define overcomer. You really think this is later, in some other life?
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Even though these authorities are often used by evil people, Christ appoints these authorities for the common good (and often chastisement) for all.
Christ appoints evil? Really, is this what you think? Christ is directly responsible for ALL the evils committed by evil rulers over the last 10,000 years? Directly?
I would seriously rethink your false accusations against My God. I am not sure He would be too happy with your assumption.
God warns the people what happens to them when they place other rulers in His Place. 1st Samuel 8. Read it. Why would God go through the whole process of the wishes of the people by allowing kings to reign over them, culminating in the birth, death, and ressurection of His only begotten Son, to have Him sit down on the Throne, AS KING, and then have His Followers follow other men, ALL OVER AGAIN?
You wish to follow other men as your rulers,,,God LETS you. Good luck with that.
Hmm, permission, authority, right, liberty, power to do something? Authority is listed as 1 definition, yet you give it as a blanket to ALL verses? I am not denying Romans 13 is talking about authority, but you are dead wrong in your assumption.
It's the same identical Greek word being used. The definitions I provided were from my Greek/English Lexicon. But the Greek word being used is the same in each scripture quoted.
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Actually, this is irrelevant. Even the Centurion had authority, so does it matter? Even I have authority in my business, but again, what is the relevance?
Yes, it does matter. All authorities on earth are appointed by God. Scripture tells us that their is NO authority but that which God has created in Christ for His own purpose, glory and honor:
Col 1:16 because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created,
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God did not give authority to Pilate over Jesus. The ONLY authority over Jesus was His Father.
The scriptures tell us otherwise. And the authority given to Pilate points back to God. Scripture explicitly states that God did give authority to Pilate so that Pilate would do whatsoever God's counsel determined (or predestined) to come to pass:
Act 4:27 for gathered together of a truth against Thy holy child Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint, were both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with nations and peoples of Israel,
Act 4:28 to do whatever Thy hand and Thy counsel did determine before to come to pass.
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Jesus ONLY did the will of the Father, and ONLY His authority was OVER Him, yet the Father GAVE Jesus ALL Authority, which I have already explain in the previous post. Why deny this?
I'm not denying that Jesus has all authority. Jesus is Jehovah God manifested in the flesh. And by that definition alone, Jesus has all authority in heaven and on earth. But why, on the other-hand, are you saying that Jesus has not appointed authorities (plural) on earth as ministers for our good? Here is a scripture that says He specifically does so:
Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
Where is the scripture that says otherwise?
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While all this sounds pretty, it is NOT biblically sound. Back in the OT times, there were many kings, and people who were put into place by God to bring in the New Covenant. When Jesus SAT DOWN, on the THRONE, then we have but 1 King. And only 1 King. We do NOT serve other masters, for we have but 1 Master.
I've given you all the scriptures, and you've supplied nothing contrary to indicate that Jesus (through Paul) gave instructions to submit to authorities on earth. Your interpretation of Rom. 13 is quite frankly, dubious. And you said that you spent years coming to this conclusion!?!?!?!?!? I don't think so. And if so, you really should read this again:
Rom 13:2 so that he who is setting himself against the authority, against God's ordinance hath resisted; and those resisting, to themselves shall receive judgment.
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You all can serve other rulers, if this is your choice. It is not mine, nor my household's. God rules, period. Christ is King, now. God, BTW, has also protected my family, from this present evil ruling over the hearts of mankind.
Yes, and the King (Jesus) is telling you and I to submit to the authorities that He has ordained here on earth.
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He has given this to HIS FOLLOWERS, not those who are not His. The devil gives them their power.
'He who overcomes, and he who keeps My deeds until the end, TO HIM I WILL GIVE AUTHORITY OVER THE NATIONS; AND HE SHALL RULE THEM WITH A ROD OF IRON, AS THE VESSELS OF THE POTTER ARE BROKEN TO PIECES, as I also have received authority from My Father;
Define overcomer. You really think this is later, in some other life?
We can, and should, resist Government authority where and when it clearly opposes the teachings of Christ. And no one denies this, at least I don't. But I also know that scripture does not give us liberty to reject all Government authority due to it's failure in many areas of governance. Consequently, we are only to resist those specific areas of Government that are clearly demanding for us to depart from Christ's teachings. And, when we do resist, we are to suffer the consequences (ie: imprisonment, fines, penalties, perhaps even death, etc.) as Christ's followers.
However, you seem to imply that Christians are to oppose every form of Government rule and authority. Why so? And where is the scripture that tells us so?
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Christ appoints evil? Really, is this what you think? Christ is directly responsible for ALL the evils committed by evil rulers over the last 10,000 years? Directly?
I would seriously rethink your false accusations against My God. I am not sure He would be too happy with your assumption.
Ultimately, everything points back to God. It's not that God himself performs evil acts, he doesn't. But rather that He has appointed evil to be the fruit of sinful behavior. So, within that context, yes, Christ appoints evil. Read the OT my friend, here are a few examples:
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.
Ecc 7:13 Consider the work of God: for who can make that straight, which he hath made crooked?
Amo 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?
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God warns the people what happens to them when they place other rulers in His Place. 1st Samuel 8. Read it. Why would God go through the whole process of the wishes of the people by allowing kings to reign over them, culminating in the birth, death, and ressurection of His only begotten Son, to have Him sit down on the Throne, AS KING, and then have His Followers follow other men, ALL OVER AGAIN?
It's not that we "follow other men", but that we submit to whatever authorities Christ has appointed for our good (protection) on earth. I don't really understand why you're not able to grasp this simple concept.
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You wish to follow other men as your rulers,,,God LETS you. Good luck with that.
The false logic is just,,,well,,,mindblowing.
I'm not sure we can really have a meaningful discussion about this. Your interpretation of scripture, as well as your attitude regarding it's discussion, is lacking the Spirit of Christ.
Last edited by AlabamaStorm; 12-07-2010 at 10:35 PM..
Reason: Typo
I'm not sure we can really have a meaningful discussion about this. Your interpretation of scripture, as well as your attitude regarding it's discussion, is lacking the Spirit of Christ.
I will take the time to go through your post when I return from work, but this sentence I had to address.
You are trying to prove biblically that we are to serve other masters, kings, presidents, and countries. I actually loath this. It hurts to read it.
I CAN prove otherwise, that as a Christian we have NO OTHER allegience but TO our King, ALONE.
They can tell us what to do, no different than I can tell you what to do. Does this mean you have to do it? No, you can defy this by turning the other cheek in this defiance. Not running away. Not bowing down. But standing firm. Kinda like you are trying to do here.
The Spirit of Christ was quite revolutionary, my friend. I would think you need to reread Jesus, and how He dealt with the religious and political leaders of His day. He came to bring forth a Kingdom, not merge with another. Especially Satan's kingdoms. He was tempted by this, you know.
We can have meaningful discussions regarding this, but if you are unwilling to see the Truth, then no, we cannot. Like I said, I have spent too much time studying Jesus and His teachings. I am willing to learn, but I also am not going to take what I have learned, and throw it away based upon the same teachings that led to my reseaching and prayers. The Spirit led me here, and opened the eyes of one who was oppressed, and in bondage. Read Jesus' mission statement in Luke. Carefully. 4:18-19
I will take the time to go through your post when I return from work, but this sentence I had to address.
You are trying to prove biblically that we are to serve other masters, kings, presidents, and countries. I actually loath this. It hurts to read it.
Not serve, but rather be subject or submit. Be subject, or submit to the higher authorities placed on earth by Christ for our common good.
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I CAN prove otherwise, that as a Christian we have NO OTHER allegience but TO our King, ALONE.
I think the difficulty we might be having is in the vocabulary of words selected to convey our thoughts. I'm using the words submit and subject and you're understanding those word to mean: serve and allegiance, respectively. They are really different words with different shades of meaning. Scripture uses the terms "submit" and be "subject" to the higher authorities. The Greek word is ὑποτάσσω and it means to place in order. Ie: To subjugate or be in submission to the higher authorities.
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They can tell us what to do, no different than I can tell you what to do. Does this mean you have to do it? No, you can defy this by turning the other cheek in this defiance. Not running away. Not bowing down. But standing firm. Kinda like you are trying to do here.
The reason I'm not obligated to submit to you is that Jesus has not put you in authority over me. Thank-you Jesus! LOL .
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The Spirit of Christ was quite revolutionary, my friend. I would think you need to reread Jesus, and how He dealt with the religious and political leaders of His day. He came to bring forth a Kingdom, not merge with another. Especially Satan's kingdoms. He was tempted by this, you know.
We can have meaningful discussions regarding this, but if you are unwilling to see the Truth, then no, we cannot. Like I said, I have spent too much time studying Jesus and His teachings. I am willing to learn, but I also am not going to take what I have learned, and throw it away based upon the same teachings that led to my reseaching and prayers. The Spirit led me here, and opened the eyes of one who was oppressed, and in bondage. Read Jesus' mission statement in Luke. Carefully. 4:18-19
Yes, but that "mission statement" does not alter what Jesus has appointed here on earth for our good.
Also, while you're thinking on these matters, think also on what the word submit means. BTW, it does not mean serve, as you've indicated:
Eph 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
This also includes submitting to a faithless husband:
1Co 7:13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.
Likewise, children are to obey (or submit) to their parents in all things, regardless of their parents faith in Christ:
Col 3:20 Children, obey your parents in all things: for this is well pleasing unto the Lord.
Jesus himself was under subjection to His own parents/guardians. Think of that. God, in the flesh, being subjected to His own creation!:
Luk 2:51 and he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and he was subject to them, and his mother was keeping all these sayings in her heart,
It is in this sense that Christians are to submit and be in subjection to "higher authorities" appointed by Christ. Not in order to serve, worship or render allegiance to them as you put it, but rather to "submit" and be "subject" to them, as in the Lord.
1Pe 2:13 Be subject, then, to every human creation, because of the Lord, whether to a king, as the highest,
1Pe 2:14 whether to governors, as to those sent through him, for punishment, indeed, of evil-doers, and a praise of those doing good;
Some great posts on here declaring God is in control.
It's a wonderful thing to bow your head and acknowledge that God is in control of all things(such great peace, how can man have peace in his heart otherwise?), yes even the darkness of this fallen world. We cannot help but be touched and moved by the darkness and all that darkness entails , but it exists so that the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ may be known to the world.
For God who said,"Let light shine out of darkness,"made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ .2 Corinthians 4:6
Pilate thought he had power and authority over Jesus,yet Jesus told him the only power he had was given to him from above.
John 19 11.
You have to ask yourself is He in control of some things , nothing at all,or all things ?. How great is your God ?.
Is our rejection to the truth that "He is in control of all things", any thing to do with our belief on how a man comes to salvation ?, if he's in control of all things, i guess he's also in control of our salvation too,(is that teeth i hear gnashing ?).
Some great posts on here declaring God is in control.
It's a wonderful thing to bow your head and acknowledge that God is in control of all things(such great peace, how can man have peace in his heart otherwise?), yes even the darkness of this fallen world. We cannot help but be touched and moved by the darkness and all that darkness entails , but it exists so that the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ may be known to the world.
For God who said,"Let light shine out of darkness,"made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ .2 Corinthians 4:6
Pilate thought he had power and authority over Jesus,yet Jesus told him the only power he had was given to him from above.
John 19 11.
You have to ask yourself is He in control of some things , nothing at all,or all things ?. How great is your God ?.
Is our rejection to the truth that "He is in control of all things", any thing to do with our belief on how a man comes to salvation ?, if he's in control of all things, i guess he's also in control of our salvation too,(is that teeth i hear gnashing ?).
I agree with you on this... There is a common thread that runs through freewill-ism, the denial of God's sovereignty over man, the denial of God's authority over man's salvation and that God controls all things on earth. We're constantly bombarded with doctrines of Arminianism, being subjected to ET'ing, and now we have those freely advocating anarchy by thinking it will render service to God. It's all firmly rooted in human pride though. Pride of the flesh.
The 60's movement in America planted, or re-established, many of these corrupt seeds of humanism, and we're now having to reap it's bitter fruit...
Christian Duty to country is a perversion of your medievil duty to your King to follow him to the Mideast for a crusade. Jesus makes no such requirement, in fact he is against it. From a purely religious standpoint the Amish and Mennonites have it there.
I'm retired Army so the fact that I spent my llife as a Soldier had little to do with religion
Christian Duty to country is a perversion of your medievil duty to your King to follow him to the Mideast for a crusade. Jesus makes no such requirement, in fact he is against it. From a purely religious standpoint the Amish and Mennonites have it there.
I'm retired Army so the fact that I spent my llife as a Soldier had little to do with religion
That many, if not most, Government engagements in war are corrupt, self serving and unjust, no Christian denies. But are you also suggesting that by virtue of these Government failures that Jesus is advocating pacifism as well as anarchy on earth?
I agree with you on this... There is a common thread that runs through freewill-ism, the denial of God's sovereignty over man, the denial of God's authority over man's salvation and that God controls all things on earth. We're constantly bombarded with doctrines of Arminianism, being subjected to ET'ing, and now we have those freely advocating anarchy by thinking it will render service to God. It's all firmly rooted in human pride though. Pride of the flesh.
The 60's movement in America planted, or re-established, many of these corrupt seeds of humanism, and we're now having to reap it's bitter fruit...
Human pride says man is in ultimate control, not God.
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I don't think so. And if so, you really should read this again:
. 
There is a common thread that runs through freewill-ism, the denial of God's sovereignty over man, the denial of God's authority over man's salvation and that God controls all things on earth. We're constantly bombarded with doctrines of Arminianism, being subjected to ET'ing, and now we have those freely advocating anarchy by thinking it will render service to God. It's all firmly rooted in human pride though. Pride of the flesh. 
