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Well, it seem that we are getting all out of context of my o.p. however i was conducting a debate under the rules that i set up for a purpose of learning and not to be dogmatic about it at all, like other that responded they responded accordingly or did not respond at all after understanding the facts of condition of the o.p. And once again it is not about my thoughts or your thoughts but of Facts. So how is it that when it gets to Isaiah 49, 50, and 53 it is talking about {singular} a man, when the surrounding verses and chapters that you agreed on that it is talking about Israel as a whole. what's in Isaiah 49,50 and 53 that lets you know that it speak of some one or something different.
I have made all the points that I care to make on this subject. I do not want to answer you any more as we have said all that needs to be said on the matter. Debate with someone else on this topic. Maybe we can debate on something else latter. Have a good day. Sincerely: garya123
I have made all the points that I care to make on this subject. I do not want to answer you any more as we have said all that needs to be said on the matter. Debate with someone else on this topic. Maybe we can debate on something else latter. Have a good day. Sincerely: garya123
Your posts are very clear, garya . . . but once people have firmly committed to a perspective . . it can be become what we call a "gestalt" . . . which cannot be changed. Take heart. It is why I do not try to change anyone's mind . . . like you I just witness to my understanding. God will sort it all out, my brother.
Try this little example:
What do you see here? . . . هذا ما أؤمن به.
Try to see it as . . . . . . . . "This is what I believe."
Now . . . if someone who ONLY knows Arabic were doing this . . . they would ONLY be able to understand the first line . . . just as you are ONLY able to understand the second (assuming you do not read Arabic). In fact, the Arab would not be able to NOT SEE or understand the first line.
Similarly . . . you are ONLY able to understand the second line and you are not able to NOT SEE or understand it. The meaning is automatic because learning to read English has become "gestalt" for you as reading Arabic is "gestalt" for the Arab. Once someting has become a LEARNED perceptual gestalt . . . it and all its meanings, emotions, etc. cannot be NOT SEEN AND UNDERSTOOD . . . it is automatic. This is the cause of much of the discord and division in the forum. So many beliefs have become "gestalt" and cannot be changed or prevented. Witness and let go and let God.
Still waiting on your exegesis, otherwise thaaman2000, your position falls apart, and is mere, speculation at this point.
The facts are Who does The MOST HIGH call his servant within the book of Isaiah. Who does The MOST HIGH call his servant in Isaiah? Isa. 41:8-9, (Israel) this is a fact and no preconceived thought, thus far you can tell that The MOST HIGH is speaking of Israel as his servant, Isa. 42:1 and when you get to verse18 –21 “Seeing many things, but thou observest not; opening the ears, but he heareth not” this is a Fact speaking of Israel and not a man, the fact is in verse Isa.42:24-25, I know that is not Jesus that is Seeing many things, and observe not, opening his ears, and hear not. (lets not be so dull in this knowledge of understanding). Fact Isa. 43:1-28, is speaking of Israel, Fact Isa. 44:1-2, thus far The MOST HIGH is still speaking of Israel as his servant and chosen one, (Jesurun is a symbolic name for Israel in Isa.44 Verse 2) Fact in Isa.45:4, The MOST HIGH is still speaking of Israel as his servant and chosen one, Fact Isa. 46:1-13 thus far still speaks of Israel. Another fact now is here were Isaiah quotes what the tribes of Israel, the elect ones, the chosen ones, the remnant of the Israel tribe would say to the nation from afar, the coastlands, in Isa. 49:1-3, “And said unto me, thou art myservant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.” Which they is quoting what The MOST HIGH is saying. It does not say my servant Jesus, and that is a fact that no one can deny, but some how people would try to interpret it to say Jesus, which is not true, but if you want to accept a lie you can, I am just showing you the facts, and you and any body else can try and justify all you want, [a person can lead a horse to the water, but can not make it drink] Isa.49:5 goes on to quote what the remnant of Israel would say what The MOST HIGH says to them, in Isa. 49 verse 6. Fact Isa.49:7 The MOST HIGH speaks of Israel being despised by man and dislike by nations and being servant (slaves) of ruler, as in Isa. 53:3. Now since some of the facts has been identified as who is talked about being a servant, so by the time a person get to Isa. 52:13, they should know that it is talking about Israel as the servant, and by the time a person make it to Isa. 53:1 they should know that it is the kings of nation that is doing the talking. As far as an exegesis (interpretation) the whole book of Isaiah interpret itself, there is no need for me to add my words or idea, but go by the facts. if a person can set aside of their preconceived ideas of whom Isaiah is talking about and then they can clearly see, and further more in this case this is a prime example of seeing, but can not see (blind) by our own thoughts of what we have been taught for all our life, and this is why i myself try to stay away from the presuppositions, the exegesis, and my thoughts and look at facts and if any assumption or an interpretation come from my part i will try to provide proof. And also as i stated earlier Eze.34:5-6 , & 21 just to shed some light of whom was speaking in Isa. 53, and not to be used as proof
The facts are Who does The MOST HIGH call his servant within the book of Isaiah. Who does The MOST HIGH call his servant in Isaiah? Isa. 41:8-9, (Israel) this is a fact and no preconceived thought, thus far you can tell that The MOST HIGH is speaking of Israel as his servant, Isa. 42:1 and when you get to verse18 –21 “Seeing many things, but thou observest not; opening the ears, but he heareth not” this is a Fact speaking of Israel and not a man, the fact is in verse Isa.42:24-25, I know that is not Jesus that is Seeing many things, and observe not, opening his ears, and hear not. (lets not be so dull in this knowledge of understanding). Fact Isa. 43:1-28, is speaking of Israel, Fact Isa. 44:1-2, thus far The MOST HIGH is still speaking of Israel as his servant and chosen one, (Jesurun is a symbolic name for Israel in Isa.44 Verse 2) Fact in Isa.45:4, The MOST HIGH is still speaking of Israel as his servant and chosen one, Fact Isa. 46:1-13 thus far still speaks of Israel. Another fact now is here were Isaiah quotes what the tribes of Israel, the elect ones, the chosen ones, the remnant of the Israel tribe would say to the nation from afar, the coastlands, in Isa. 49:1-3, “And said unto me, thou art myservant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.” Which they is quoting what The MOST HIGH is saying. It does not say my servant Jesus, and that is a fact that no one can deny, but some how people would try to interpret it to say Jesus, which is not true, but if you want to accept a lie you can, I am just showing you the facts, and you and any body else can try and justify all you want, [a person can lead a horse to the water, but can not make it drink] Isa.49:5 goes on to quote what the remnant of Israel would say what The MOST HIGH says to them, in Isa. 49 verse 6. Fact Isa.49:7 The MOST HIGH speaks of Israel being despised by man and dislike by nations and being servant (slaves) of ruler, as in Isa. 53:3. Now since some of the facts has been identified as who is talked about being a servant, so by the time a person get to Isa. 52:13, they should know that it is talking about Israel as the servant, and by the time a person make it to Isa. 53:1 they should know that it is the kings of nation that is doing the talking. As far as an exegesis (interpretation) the whole book of Isaiah interpret itself, there is no need for me to add my words or idea, but go by the facts. if a person can set aside of their preconceived ideas of whom Isaiah is talking about and then they can clearly see, and further more in this case this is a prime example of seeing, but can not see (blind) by our own thoughts of what we have been taught for all our life, and this is why i myself try to stay away from the presuppositions, the exegesis, and my thoughts and look at facts and if any assumption or an interpretation come from my part i will try to provide proof. And also as i stated earlier Eze.34:5-6 , & 21 just to shed some light of whom was speaking in Isa. 53, and not to be used as proof
Thank you for your exegesis. Israel, applied to Messiah, according to the true import of the name, the Prince who had power with God in wrestling in behalf of man, and who prevails (Gen 32:28 Hosa 12:3, 4). He is also the ideal Israel, the representative man of the nation (compare Mat 2:15 ) in whom . . . is glorified-- (John 14:13 17:1-5). Also compare Isa 53:6, in that the sheep (Israel) and the Messiah (him)... All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Your theme falls apart at the slightest metaphors.....
Yet.....let's get to Jewish basic facts...
According to the earliest Targum ("an Aramaic translation of the Hebrew Bible (Tanakh) written or compiled from the Second Temple period until the early Middle Ages...late first millennium, of Jonathan ben Uzziah dating from the first century AD, it says of Isaiah "Behold my servant Messiah shall prosper..." These Targum were heavily quoted by early rabbis and were certainly considered an authority on the Jewish view of Scripture.
Without doubt the writer or translator considered the Isaiah passage in question to speak of the Messiah, not Israel. Others like Rabbi Don Yitzchak Abarbanel (circa 1500) admitted that the majority of rabbis of the Midrashim took the passage to speak of the Messiah, even though he personally did not. How about the Zohar from the 2nd century BC (or possibly the 13th, depending upon who it is believed to have written it)?
References are made to the suffering that the Messiah took upon Himself that was dues to Israel. What about the Babylonian Talmud? Rabbi Yuda the Saint said "The sick one," as it is said, "Surely he hath borne our sicknesses" (Sanhedrin 98b). In the Midrash Thuhumi we read "Rabbi Nahman says, The word "man" in the passage...refers to the Messiah, the son of David. How about the Sepher Ha-Gilgalim? Referring to the Isaiah 52:13 passage it says "He shall be high and exalted, etc." or as the Rabbis say "He shall be higher than Abraham, exceedingly above Adam!"
This does NOT describe the nation of Israel. Anyone who attempts to identify the Suffering Servant with the nation of Israel is either allegorizing, or fully stretching the truth to the breaking point, in which you are doing, and in that, I have much experience in debating...so let this be reproof for you, if you continue this charade, you may be stepping out of your league.....The Midrash Cohen is another evidence of the fact that this passage was viewed as belonging to the physical Messiah, not the nation of Israel. If that isn't enough, how about the Mahsor and the Musaf Prayer found within? Written by Rabbi Eliezer Kalir around the 7th century AD and in part reads as follows: "Messiah our righteousness is departed from us...He hath borne the yoke of our iniquities and our transgressions and is wounded because of our transgression. He beareth our sins on his shoulder, that he may find pardon for our iniquities. We shall be healed by his wound, at the time that the Eternal will create him as a new creature..."
Is it not obvious that this prayer of Yom Kippur speaks clearly of the Messiah and the fear that he has departed from the people (Israel)?
That the above view is seen as the dominant one among Jewry in the 10th century cannot be disputed, and can be seen from the commentary by Yepheth ben Ali who said, "As to myself, I am inclined, with Benjamin of Nehawend, to regard it as alluding to the Messiah...The expression "my servant" is applied to the Messiah as it is applied to his ancestor in the verse, "I have sworn to David my servant."
However, is all this necessary? The simple fact is that the themes Isaiah is using is clear cut, to the chase, otherwise, if we were to import your literal and wooden theology into this matter....Israel, is killed, for Israel?
Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
A clear cut reference to the seed of David, a Hebrew, a man, God in the Flesh, Israel, the Holy One of, God is with us.
thank you for your exegesis. Israel, applied to messiah, according to the true import of the name, the prince who had power with god in wrestling in behalf of man, and who prevails (gen 32:28 hosa 12:3, 4). He is also the ideal israel, the representative man of the nation (compare mat 2:15 ) in whom . . . Is glorified-- (john 14:13 17:1-5). Also compare isa 53:6, in that the sheep (israel) and the messiah (him)... all we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
your theme falls apart at the slightest metaphors.....
Yet.....let's get to jewish basic facts...
According to the earliest targum ("an aramaic translation of the hebrew bible (tanakh) written or compiled from the second temple period until the early middle ages...late first millennium, of jonathan ben uzziah dating from the first century ad, it says of isaiah "behold my servant messiah shall prosper..." these targum were heavily quoted by early rabbis and were certainly considered an authority on the jewish view of scripture.
Without doubt the writer or translator considered the isaiah passage in question to speak of the messiah, not israel. Others like rabbi don yitzchak abarbanel (circa 1500) admitted that the majority of rabbis of the midrashim took the passage to speak of the messiah, even though he personally did not. How about the zohar from the 2nd century bc (or possibly the 13th, depending upon who it is believed to have written it)?
References are made to the suffering that the messiah took upon himself that was dues to israel. what about the babylonian talmud? Rabbi yuda the saint said "the sick one," as it is said, "surely he hath borne our sicknesses" (sanhedrin 98b). In the midrash thuhumi we read "rabbi nahman says, the word "man" in the passage...refers to the messiah, the son of david. How about the sepher ha-gilgalim? Referring to the isaiah 52:13 passage it says "he shall be high and exalted, etc." or as the rabbis say "he shall be higher than abraham, exceedingly above adam!"
this does not describe the nation of israel. Anyone who attempts to identify the suffering servant with the nation of israel is either allegorizing, or fully stretching the truth to the breaking point, in which you are doing, and in that, i have much experience in debating...so let this be reproof for you, if you continue this charade, you may be stepping out of your league.....the midrash cohen is another evidence of the fact that this passage was viewed as belonging to the physical messiah, not the nation of israel. If that isn't enough, how about the mahsor and the musaf prayer found within? Written by rabbi eliezer kalir around the 7th century ad and in part reads as follows: "messiah our righteousness is departed from us...he hath borne the yoke of our iniquities and our transgressions and is wounded because of our transgression. He beareth our sins on his shoulder, that he may find pardon for our iniquities. We shall be healed by his wound, at the time that the eternal will create him as a new creature..."
is it not obvious that this prayer of yom kippur speaks clearly of the messiah and the fear that he has departed from the people (israel)?
That the above view is seen as the dominant one among jewry in the 10th century cannot be disputed, and can be seen from the commentary by yepheth ben ali who said, "as to myself, i am inclined, with benjamin of nehawend, to regard it as alluding to the messiah...the expression "my servant" is applied to the messiah as it is applied to his ancestor in the verse, "i have sworn to david my servant."
however, is all this necessary? The simple fact is that the themes isaiah is using is clear cut, to the chase, otherwise, if we were to import your literal and wooden theology into this matter....israel, is killed, for israel?
yet it pleased the lord to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: When thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the lord shall prosper in his hand.
A clear cut reference to the seed of david, a hebrew, a man, god in the flesh, israel, the holy one of, god is with us.
Shall we continue?
Great stuff! Keep up the good work brother. False notions are but a house of cards before the Truth. No one is deliberately misleading but when Truth is not interpreted properly, untruth will mislead a soul.
Thank you for your exegesis. Israel, applied to Messiah, according to the true import of the name, the Prince who had power with God in wrestling in behalf of man, and who prevails (Gen 32:28 Hosa 12:3, 4). He is also the ideal Israel, the representative man of the nation (compare Mat 2:15 ) in whom . . . is glorified-- (John 14:13 17:1-5). Also compare Isa 53:6, in that the sheep (Israel) and the Messiah (him)... All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Your theme falls apart at the slightest metaphors.....
Yet.....let's get to Jewish basic facts...
According to the earliest Targum ("an Aramaic translation of the Hebrew Bible (Tanakh) written or compiled from the Second Temple period until the early Middle Ages...late first millennium, of Jonathan ben Uzziah dating from the first century AD, it says of Isaiah "Behold my servant Messiah shall prosper..." These Targum were heavily quoted by early rabbis and were certainly considered an authority on the Jewish view of Scripture.
Without doubt the writer or translator considered the Isaiah passage in question to speak of the Messiah, not Israel. Others like Rabbi Don Yitzchak Abarbanel (circa 1500) admitted that the majority of rabbis of the Midrashim took the passage to speak of the Messiah, even though he personally did not. How about the Zohar from the 2nd century BC (or possibly the 13th, depending upon who it is believed to have written it)?
References are made to the suffering that the Messiah took upon Himself that was dues to Israel. What about the Babylonian Talmud? Rabbi Yuda the Saint said "The sick one," as it is said, "Surely he hath borne our sicknesses" (Sanhedrin 98b). In the Midrash Thuhumi we read "Rabbi Nahman says, The word "man" in the passage...refers to the Messiah, the son of David. How about the Sepher Ha-Gilgalim? Referring to the Isaiah 52:13 passage it says "He shall be high and exalted, etc." or as the Rabbis say "He shall be higher than Abraham, exceedingly above Adam!"
This does NOT describe the nation of Israel. Anyone who attempts to identify the Suffering Servant with the nation of Israel is either allegorizing, or fully stretching the truth to the breaking point, in which you are doing, and in that, I have much experience in debating...so let this be reproof for you, if you continue this charade, you may be stepping out of your league.....The Midrash Cohen is another evidence of the fact that this passage was viewed as belonging to the physical Messiah, not the nation of Israel. If that isn't enough, how about the Mahsor and the Musaf Prayer found within? Written by Rabbi Eliezer Kalir around the 7th century AD and in part reads as follows: "Messiah our righteousness is departed from us...He hath borne the yoke of our iniquities and our transgressions and is wounded because of our transgression. He beareth our sins on his shoulder, that he may find pardon for our iniquities. We shall be healed by his wound, at the time that the Eternal will create him as a new creature..."
Is it not obvious that this prayer of Yom Kippur speaks clearly of the Messiah and the fear that he has departed from the people (Israel)?
That the above view is seen as the dominant one among Jewry in the 10th century cannot be disputed, and can be seen from the commentary by Yepheth ben Ali who said, "As to myself, I am inclined, with Benjamin of Nehawend, to regard it as alluding to the Messiah...The expression "my servant" is applied to the Messiah as it is applied to his ancestor in the verse, "I have sworn to David my servant."
However, is all this necessary? The simple fact is that the themes Isaiah is using is clear cut, to the chase, otherwise, if we were to import your literal and wooden theology into this matter....Israel, is killed, for Israel?
Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
A clear cut reference to the seed of David, a Hebrew, a man, God in the Flesh, Israel, the Holy One of, God is with us.
Shall we continue?
Quote:
Originally Posted by garya123
Great stuff! Keep up the good work brother. False notions are but a house of cards before the Truth. No one is deliberately misleading but when Truth is not interpreted properly, untruth will mislead a soul.
Thank you for your exegesis. Israel, applied to Messiah, according to the true import of the name, the Prince who had power with God in wrestling in behalf of man, and who prevails (Gen 32:28 Hosa 12:3, 4). He is also the ideal Israel, the representative man of the nation (compare Mat 2:15 ) in whom . . . is glorified-- (John 14:13 17:1-5). Also compare Isa 53:6, in that the sheep (Israel) and the Messiah (him)... All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Your theme falls apart at the slightest metaphors.....
Yet.....let's get to Jewish basic facts...
According to the earliest Targum ("an Aramaic translation of the Hebrew Bible (Tanakh) written or compiled from the Second Temple period until the early Middle Ages...late first millennium, of Jonathan ben Uzziah dating from the first century AD, it says of Isaiah "Behold my servant Messiah shall prosper..." These Targum were heavily quoted by early rabbis and were certainly considered an authority on the Jewish view of Scripture.
Without doubt the writer or translator considered the Isaiah passage in question to speak of the Messiah, not Israel. Others like Rabbi Don Yitzchak Abarbanel (circa 1500) admitted that the majority of rabbis of the Midrashim took the passage to speak of the Messiah, even though he personally did not. How about the Zohar from the 2nd century BC (or possibly the 13th, depending upon who it is believed to have written it)?
References are made to the suffering that the Messiah took upon Himself that was dues to Israel. What about the Babylonian Talmud? Rabbi Yuda the Saint said "The sick one," as it is said, "Surely he hath borne our sicknesses" (Sanhedrin 98b). In the Midrash Thuhumi we read "Rabbi Nahman says, The word "man" in the passage...refers to the Messiah, the son of David. How about the Sepher Ha-Gilgalim? Referring to the Isaiah 52:13 passage it says "He shall be high and exalted, etc." or as the Rabbis say "He shall be higher than Abraham, exceedingly above Adam!"
This does NOT describe the nation of Israel. Anyone who attempts to identify the Suffering Servant with the nation of Israel is either allegorizing, or fully stretching the truth to the breaking point, in which you are doing, and in that, I have much experience in debating...so let this be reproof for you, if you continue this charade, you may be stepping out of your league.....The Midrash Cohen is another evidence of the fact that this passage was viewed as belonging to the physical Messiah, not the nation of Israel. If that isn't enough, how about the Mahsor and the Musaf Prayer found within? Written by Rabbi Eliezer Kalir around the 7th century AD and in part reads as follows: "Messiah our righteousness is departed from us...He hath borne the yoke of our iniquities and our transgressions and is wounded because of our transgression. He beareth our sins on his shoulder, that he may find pardon for our iniquities. We shall be healed by his wound, at the time that the Eternal will create him as a new creature..."
Is it not obvious that this prayer of Yom Kippur speaks clearly of the Messiah and the fear that he has departed from the people (Israel)?
That the above view is seen as the dominant one among Jewry in the 10th century cannot be disputed, and can be seen from the commentary by Yepheth ben Ali who said, "As to myself, I am inclined, with Benjamin of Nehawend, to regard it as alluding to the Messiah...The expression "my servant" is applied to the Messiah as it is applied to his ancestor in the verse, "I have sworn to David my servant."
However, is all this necessary? The simple fact is that the themes Isaiah is using is clear cut, to the chase, otherwise, if we were to import your literal and wooden theology into this matter....Israel, is killed, for Israel?
Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
A clear cut reference to the seed of David, a Hebrew, a man, God in the Flesh, Israel, the Holy One of, God is with us.
Shall we continue?
This is were you fell, due to my o.p. {Do any one care to examine and dissect Isaiah 53 carefully and closely without any out side texts or resources, but your bible that you are custom to use of the old test only. (But mind you this is for learning purpose only, cause i claim not to know everything and do not assume that anyone that respond knows everything and that it is correct in what one counter respond to.)} I know myself there are plenty of out side resources to disagree with what facts that i presented and as well agree, such as the rabbinic interpretations, the Jewish commentator, Rashi (1040ce-1105ce), the Talmud Berachos, as well as some Christians commentators, and that is way i set such rules to structure this debate. I mean i could counter respond with such resources, but i would be braking my on rules. So it is not that any one would be out of their league, i am pretty sure if not such structure that i laid out this would be a never ending thread cause of such resources. But thank you any way.
This is were you fell, due to my o.p. {Do any one care to examine and dissect Isaiah 53 carefully and closely without any out side texts or resources, but your bible that you are custom to use of the old test only. (But mind you this is for learning purpose only, cause i claim not to know everything and do not assume that anyone that respond knows everything and that it is correct in what one counter respond to.)} I know myself there are plenty of out side resources to disagree with what facts that i presented and as well agree, such as the rabbinic interpretations, the Jewish commentator, Rashi (1040ce-1105ce), the Talmud Berachos, as well as some Christians commentators, and that is way i set such rules to structure this debate. I mean i could counter respond with such resources, but i would be braking my on rules. So it is not that any one would be out of their league, i am pretty sure if not such structure that i laid out this would be a never ending thread cause of such resources. But thank you any way.
Cop out. Straight up.
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...keep it up! 
