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Originally Posted by sciotamicks For Eusebius, you asked me some questions, and you must address the OP, before you can ask me them again in the proper context of the language given.
O.K. I answered you, now I will ask you this for about the fourth time:
sciota, I asked you some questions and you failed to answer them near the end of the other thread on Universalism.
Here are the questions again:
Question #1 for sciota:
Tell me sciota, if "for ever" or "forever" is eternity, how can one ever end
for another ever replace it, as in the phrase "for ever and ever"? And
how it is the Bible says all the evers (aionas, plural for eons) end if "for ever" is "eternal"?
Question #2 for sciota:
Tell me sciota, when the Bible states "Jesus lives for a thousand years"
in Revelation 20:4, do you think Jesus is going to automatically die when
the thousand years ends? _______ yes ________no
Question #3 for sciota:
And if you believe the answer is "no" above, why would you think God's glory
is going to end when the final two eons or ages end?
One needs to provide definitive scriptures in order to prove your points above.
Where is aionios used to determine God's life?
Matthew 25:46 is one that is a great one to illustrate this.
The person who believes in eternal separation will use it claiming that if you apply aionios to life with God in a certain way you must apply it to mans punishment in the same manner. This is incorrect, because words are not confined in meaning by such standards
The majority of universalists will object that you must apply it temporarily to both, partially for the same reasonings as above. They will argue that because it makes sense in all cases that it is used as a temporary measure then that must be how it is used. This is also not a standard by which words meanings must apply.
The definitions that can be used for aionios can apply differently depending upon what it is applied to.
I never said "God has age-during life" now did I? No, I did not. The Bible does not say God has age-dur8ing life.
To say that that aionios refers to life pertaining to the eons, instead of eternal life is to say that aionios means age-during.
Quote:
Jesus Christ is not the God of Jesus Christ. Try to learn something for once.
Jesus Christ is the second Person of the trinity. He is co-equal and co-eternal with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. Since the moment he became a member of the human race, Jesus Christ is the unique person of the universe. He is infinite God and true humanity in hypostatic union.
Quote:
We get immortality AND we will also get eonian life which is the life pertaining to the eons. When the eons end, and the bible says they will, we will continue to live because we have immortality. The immortal life is what one could call "eternal" life. The Bible just never calls it that.
The believer puts on immortality when resurrected. He is not in possession of immortality at the time he believes otherwise he would not need resurrected out of death. He has the promise of immortality.
Here then is your false claim that man has age-during life - eonian life - life pertaining to the ages.
As previously presented, here again is scripture which states that God has eternal life.
Of God the Father: 1 John 1:2 'and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal [aiōnion ] life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us. God does not have life pertaining to the ages. He has eternal life. God has existed from eternity past and will exist throughout eternity future.
Of God the Son and of the believer: 1 John 5:11 'And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal [aiōnion] life, and this life is in His Son.
Of the believer: 1 John 5:13 'These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have [Present Active Indicative] eternal [aiōnion ] life.
God the Father does not have age-during life. He does not have eonian life. He has eternal life. He has eternally existed. He never had a beginning. He never came into existence. He will never cease to exist. Jesus Christ who is the second Person of the Godhead is in His deity, eternal.
At the moment of faith in Christ, the believer is given the very eternal life of God.
Quote:
I'm sure your paganism mixed with christianity will get you plenty of friends but it does not honor God nor His Son.
Like I said, There is no verse in the Bible that says "God is eternal." At least not in any properly translated Bible there is none.
Here are the verses you posted above in a better translation:
Deu 33:27 the habitation of Elohim aforetime[qe·ḏem,]. And beneath are the arms eonian. He shall drive out the enemy from your presence and shall say:Exterminate him!
The life pertaining to the eons of the believer:
1Jn 1:2 And the life was manifested, and we have seen and are testifying and reporting to you the life eonian which was toward the Father and was manifested to us."
1Jn 5:11 And this is the testimony, that God gives us life eonian, and this life is in His Son."
1Jn 5:13 These things I write to you that you who are believing in the name of the son of God may be perceiving that you have life eonian.
Let's take 1 John 5:13. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life. [NASB]
You don't have any objections to the Greek word Ταῦτα being translated into the English as 'things.' You're okay with that.
You don't have any objections to the Greek word υἱοῦ being translated into the English as 'Son' You're okay with that.
You don't have any objections to the Greek word ζωὴν being translated into the English as 'life.' You're okay with that.
But when it comes to the Greek word αἰώνιον transliterated as aiōnion and translated into the English as eternal, all of a sudden you have a problem with that. Now all of a sudden you say that the Greek word αἰώνιον has to be confined to its transliteration of aionion or eonion.
The New Greek/English Interlinear New Testament UBS 4TH edition, Nestle-Aland 26TH edition translates αἰώνιον as eternal in 1 John 5:13
The body needs to be resurrected because our current bodies are mortal. But man's soul is immortal and lives forever. But where man spends eternity is dependent on whether he has an eternal relationship with God or not. If a person believes in Jesus Christ for salvation, God imputes His very own eternal life to that person and that person can then live in the presence of God forever. Otherwise, he must spend the eternal future separated from God.
Regenerate man has body, soul, and human spirit. 1Thess 5:23; Heb 4:12; 3 John 1:2 [body and soul]
The soul survives the death of the body. Matthew 10:28; Luke 23:43; Phil 1:21-25; 2 Peter 1:13-14; Rev 20:4.
Man has eternal life the very moment he believes in Jesus Christ for salvation. And in the future his body will be resurrected.
Matthew 25:46 is one that is a great one to illustrate this.
The person who believes in eternal separation will use it claiming that if you apply aionios to life with God in a certain way you must apply it to mans punishment in the same manner. This is incorrect, because words are not confined in meaning by such standards
The majority of universalists will object that you must apply it temporarily to both, partially for the same reasonings as above. They will argue that because it makes sense in all cases that it is used as a temporary measure then that must be how it is used. This is also not a standard by which words meanings must apply.
The definitions that can be used for aionios can apply differently depending upon what it is applied to.
Dear Phazelwood, the life that the *nations* (i.e., Russia, Iran, United States) which might be the nations which will have treated Christ's brethren correctly during their ("their" being Christ's brethren) great tribulation get the life pertaining to that eon, which life is of the millennial kingdom (which lasts 1000 years). *Nations* such as Russia do not get the """"life of God""". You don't give immortality to a nations called "Russia." Rather, the "life" or more specifically "the eonian life" those nations will enjoy will be the life of blessings coming out of Christ's kingdom He will set up in Israel.
Likewise, the *nations* whice mistreated Christ's brethren during their great tribulation will get eonian chastening which is the chastening pertaining to that eon which also lasts 1000 years. Yes, God is going to withdraw rain from some nations such as maybe Saudi Arabia or Kuwait and rule them with an iron club. That will be their eonian chastening. It will be *like* fire.
It does not prove a point by using the fallacy of argumentum ad populum which is "if most universalists object to eonian life and eonian chastening being of equal duration then it must be wrong." Get it?
Jesus does not tell the good *nations* that they are His brethren. Rather He will state in that day that they (those nations) that treated His brethren well . . . ."
Dear Mike, One (such as Jesus) who has a God cannot be that God and neither can One (such as Jesus) who has a God be equal to that God.
When Jesus was on the earth, after He came out of the tomb, told His disciples He is ascending to His God and ascending to their God.
Jesus always did the will of His God.
Jesus was anointed by His God.
The works Jesus did were the works of His God through Him.
Jesus is not the God of the disciples. His God is the disciple's God.
Memorize this bro:
1 Corinthians 8:5-7 CLV (5) For even if so be that there are those being
termed gods, whether in heaven or on earth, even as there are many gods
and many lords, (6) nevertheless for us there is one God, the Father, out
of Whom all is, and we for Him, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom
all is, and we through Him." (7) But not in all is there this knowledge.
Not three Gods, Mike. Not Trinity, Mike. ONE GOD, THE FATHER. Just one God which is the Father. Jesus is not His Father. He is the Son of God. Not "God the Son."
Dear Phazelwood, the life that the *nations* (i.e., Russia, Iran, United States) which treated Christ's brethren correctly during their great tribulation get the life pertaining to that eon, which life is of the millennial kingdom (which lasts 1000 years). *Nations* such as Russia do not get the """"life of God""". You don't give immortality to a nations called "Russia."
Likewise, the *nations* whice mistreated Christ's brethren during their great tribulation will get eonian chastening which is the chastening pertaining to that eon which also lasts 1000 years. Yes, God is going to withdraw rain from some nations such as maybe Saudi Arabia or Kuwait and rule them with an iron club.
It does not prove a point by using the fallacy of argumentum ad populum which is "if most universalists object to eonian life and eonian chastening being of equal duration then it must be wrong." Get it?
I'm not going to debate what we believe scripture says in this thread, I am pointing out from the perpective of the OP that incorrectly using a word does not inherantly cause a conclusion to be wrong.
Eternal damnation or universalism is not proven wrong by such means.
My point about the word aionios is simply fact of the use of words. To demand that aionios can only mean an age or only mean an eternity in the absolute sense is incorrect in either case.
Your belief that I have used a fallacy is misunderstanding of my point. My point was not to appeal to the authority of the majority and how they argue the use of a word, it was to qualify that not all universalists make the claim of aionios making sense when used as an age in every case therefore makes that use of the word correct.
My point is that arguing that a word makes sense in every case it is used a certain way, does not inherantly mean using it that way in every case is correct. That is not a fallacy, that is fact.
Universalists waste their time arguing that a certain word must only mean one thing because all they can do is appeal to a fabricated way to determine what the definition of the word is and in fact have been duped into such incorrect argumentative action by believing that they must prove that aionios can never mean eternal.
Dear Mike, One (such as Jesus) who has a God cannot be that God and neither can One (such as Jesus) who has a God be equal to that God.
When Jesus was on the earth, after He came out of the tomb, told His disciples He is ascending to His God and ascending to their God.
Jesus always did the will of His God.
Jesus was anointed by His God.
The works Jesus did were the works of His God through Him.
Jesus is not the God of the disciples. His God is the disciple's God.
Memorize this bro:
1 Corinthians 8:5-7 CLV (5) For even if so be that there are those being
termed gods, whether in heaven or on earth, even as there are many gods
and many lords, (6) nevertheless for us there is one God, the Father, out
of Whom all is, and we for Him, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom
all is, and we through Him." (7) But not in all is there this knowledge.
Not three Gods, Mike. Not Trinity, Mike. ONE GOD, THE FATHER. Just one God which is the Father. Jesus is not His Father. He is the Son of God. Not "God the Son."
This knowledge is not in you but it will be.
And yet God the Father adresses Jesus and tells Him. Your throne oh (GOD) is for ever and ever. So it appears the Father considered Jesus as God as well. And we know there is only one God. Yet it takes three beings to = One God.
And yet God the Father adresses Jesus and tells Him. Your throne oh (GOD) is for ever and ever. So it appears the Father considered Jesus as God as well. And we know there is only one God. Yet it takes three beings to = One God.
"Yet not in all is there this knowledge." Paul the apostle was right.
Jesus can carry the title "THEOS" translated "GOD" because God, His God, made Him a Subjector.
God made Moses GOD too because he was to be Pharaoh's subjector in subjecting Pharaoh to what God was going to do.
Exo 7:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a GOD to
Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.
Jesus said to the Jews: "Did I not say 'Ye are GODS?'"
Those Jews were subjectors. The judges were to subject the people to God's laws.
1 Being = God, Who is the Father, out of Whom all is.
1 Being = One Lord, Who is Jesus Christ, through Whom all is.
God is the source
Jesus is the channel
Yet not in all is there this knowledge.
"I am ascending to My God and your God." Jesus said it. Believe it.
Phazlewood, if aionion can mean "eternal" when used of God then "thousand" can mean eternal when used of Jesus in which it is said in Revelation "they reign and live with Him a thousand years."
We can have all sorts of fun with this. I can now claim like Humpty Dumpty in "Through the Looking Glass" that any word means just what I say it means.
Humpty appears in Lewis Carroll's Through the Looking-Glass (1872), where he discusses semantics and pragmatics with Alice.
“I don’t know what you mean by ‘glory,’ ” Alice said.
Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. “Of course you don’t—till I tell you. I meant ‘there’s a nice knock-down argument for you!’ ”
“But ‘glory’ doesn’t mean ‘a nice knock-down argument’,” Alice objected.
“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.”
“The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.”
“The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master that’s all.”
Alice was too much puzzled to say anything, so after a minute Humpty Dumpty began again. “They’ve a temper, some of them—particularly verbs, they’re the proudest—adjectives you can do anything with, but not verbs—however, I can manage the whole lot! Impenetrability! That’s what I say!”
"Yet not in all is there this knowledge." Paul the apostle was right.
Jesus can carry the title "THEOS" translated "GOD" because God, His God, made Him a Subjector.
God made Moses GOD too because he was to be Pharaoh's subjector in subjecting Pharaoh to what God was going to do.
Exo 7:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a GOD to
Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.
Jesus said to the Jews: "Did I not say 'Ye are GODS?'"
Those Jews were subjectors. The judges were to subject the people to God's laws.
1 Being = God, Who is the Father, out of Whom all is.
1 Being = One Lord, Who is Jesus Christ, through Whom all is.
God is the source
Jesus is the channel
Yet not in all is there this knowledge.
"I am ascending to My God and your God." Jesus said it. Believe it.
And yet Scripture tells us that Jesus made all things. While the God of the Old Testament tells us He made all things alone and by Himself. So who made all things?
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