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Interesting stuff; thank you for explaining subtleties in ways that us linguistic neophytes can understand. It felt like I was back in school again (but listened this time...).
I Do think your point that we all tend to view historical issues with insufficient insight is perfectly true and I especially believe you are correct that we all tend to project OUR world and OUR religious beliefs onto the ancients. I think this is, to some extent, inevitable and unavoidable. However, once armed with the recognition that this is the human tendency, you think we'd understand that current historical models HAVE TO BE somewhat INCORRECT and thus our job is to be finding the errors in our current historical models, rather than simply seeking to confirm current concepts as being without error.
'The Hebrew mind just did not think the way that the OP’s mind is thinking. The OP is “impressing” this thought into his own studies. He needs to dive a little deeper into the way they thought back then, they just didn’t think in eternal terms. I had told someone this on this forum before…'
You followed up post #42 with posts #43, 46, and 47.
This is your statement in this post.
Whether an "Olam" last for 10 years, 100 years or ETERNITY, in THEIR language they would still call it an "AGE". Once again, the LENGTH of the "olam" has NOTHING to do with the DEFINTION of "olam".
With that statement you acknowledge that 'Olam can indeed refer to eternity. Then you turn around and say that in the Hebrew language they would still call it an 'AGE'. Put it together and you have an eternal age.
You're playing the definition of the word 'Olam' against its usage in Judaism as it relates to the world to come.
Here is how Olam is defined: Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
always, ancient time, any more, continuance, eternal, for, everlasting, long time,
Or lolam {o-lawm'}; from alam; properly, concealed, i.e. The vanishing point; generally, time out of mind (past or future), i.e. (practically) eternity; frequentatively, adverbial (especially with prepositional prefix) always -- alway(-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, (n-))ever(-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end). Compare netsach, ad.
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The issue is how does Judaism use the word 'Olam' in relation to this temporal world and the world to come which is eternal. This has already been answered in the original post.
The Encyclopedia Britannica makes the following entry on Olam Ha-ba.
ʿolam ha-ba, (Hebrew: “the world to come”) in Jewish theology, either “the world after death” or the new creation or restoration of the world that is to follow the messianic millennium. Because this latter interpretation stemmed from the teachings and exhortations of the prophets, it was especially prevalent during the period of the Second Temple of Jerusalem (516 bc–ad 70). Whatever the interpretation of ʿolam ha-ba, it meant for Jews the end of uncertainty, miseries, and strife.
Rabbi A. Leib Scheinbawm of the Hebrew Academy of Cleveland, in an article titled 'PARSHAS ACHREI MOS,' made the following comment. 'By studying Torah in this world, we are preparing ourselves for chayei olam, eternal life in Olam Habba.' Hebrew Academy Parsha Sheet [About the 9th paragraph from top.] Hebrew Academy Parsha Sheet
In Judaism, the word 'Olam' is used in connection with the present temporal world, and in connection with the world to come with reference either to life after death, or to the eternal age which follows the Messianic age.
While the definition of the word 'Olam' may take in the meaning of 'the vanishing point', or 'beyond the horizon', or 'concealed'; in usage, the word 'Olam' is used both in 'Olam Hazeh' - this world, or in 'Haolam Ha-bah' - the world to come which in Judaism refers to eternity.
The point of this thread is to show how the word 'Olam' is used in Judaism. And it is used to refer to that which is eternal as well as to this temporal world.
Now if you want to deny that, then you must do so in the face of what is held to be true in Judaism.
And if you want to claim yourself as a greater authority on Judaism then the Jews themselves are, then you must present your credentials to justify your claim.
I urge readers to carefully read post #1 as well as this post.
Mike, you are missing the point of the whole thing, you say….
Quote:
This is your statement in this post.
Whether an "Olam" last for 10 years, 100 years or ETERNITY, in THEIR language they would still call it an "AGE". Once again, the LENGTH of the "olam" has NOTHING to do with the DEFINTION of "olam".
With that statement you acknowledge that 'Olam can indeed refer to eternity. Then you turn around and say that in the Hebrew language they would still call it an 'AGE'. Put it together and you have an eternal age.
No…no…no.. I am NOT acknowledging that an “olam” can be DEFINED as “eternity”, that is what YOU want everybody to think. What I am saying is that the DEFINITION of “olam” is simply “an age” (more precisely, “an obscure hidden period of time”). It is NOT “eternity” as you keep trying to force it to be. The reason I used word “eternity” in my comment was to show that the LENGTH of an “age” has NOTHING to do with the definition.
What YOU are “putting together” is YOUR understanding of “eternity” with THEIR “Olam”. Hence, this is why you are ALWAYS saying “eternal age”. THEY are simply saying “age”, but YOU add “eternal” to it. Like I said, they didn’t think like you do Mike.
Of all the studies I have done on the Hebrews concept of time, I have found that they just did NOT have, or even THINK, in the concept of “eternity” or “abstract infinity”. They simply lived in the NOW. You and I think of linear time, while they, on the other hand thought in circular time. More noteworthy, our time proceeds in “order” (or chronologically), while their time was looked at in a “qualitative” sense. What they wait for is to live in the NOW of the “olam” that is coming, they just didn’t trouble themselves with this concept of “eternity”. Time for them was “vitality” in the NOW. If one does not have vitality now, then time does not exist.
What you are doing or “adding” to their concept of “olam”, is YOUR duration of it. They just didn’t think that way. You are concerned with how LONG the NOW is going to last, while they were only concern with the “Life of NOW” in THAT Olam.
Case in point…..you are quoting things in the English language like the following…
Quote:
The Encyclopedia Britannica makes the following entry on Olam Ha-ba.
ʿolam ha-ba, (Hebrew: “the world to come”) in Jewish theology, either “the world after death” or the new creation or restoration of the world that is to follow the messianic millennium. Because this latter interpretation stemmed from the teachings and exhortations of the prophets, it was especially prevalent during the period of the Second Temple of Jerusalem (516 bc–ad 70). Whatever the interpretation of ʿolam ha-ba, it meant for Jews the end of uncertainty, miseries, and strife.
Jewish literature contrasts ʿolam ha-ba with ʿolam ha-ze (“this world”). The latter is a time to prove oneself worthy of participating in “the world to come.”
We who read English are reading such phrases here as: “the world to come”….”the world after death”….”this world”. Now, NOT ONCE do we see that the Hebrew “olam ha-ba” is being rendered in English as “the ETERNITY to come”. For they STILL maintain that it is a “world” or an “age”. You want olam to mean “eternity” because that is your understanding of HOW LONG the last Olam lasts. You add this every time like when you say…
Quote:
The issue is how does Judaism use the word 'Olam' in relation to this temporal world and the world to come which is eternal. This has already been answered in the original post.
Here you are DESCRIBING the two olams. One is a “temporal world” and the other is an “eternal world”. Well, lets just get rid of the words “temporal” and “eternal”. What are we left with then? We are left with the single word “WORLD” in either case for Olam. And that’s ALL it means…”a world”….”an age”….”an era”. Once again, you cannot use your DESCRIPTIONS of them as its DEFINITION. In regards to my replies, you state…
Quote:
You're playing the definition of the word 'Olam' against its usage in Judaism as it relates to the world to come.
Quote:
….but it is YOU who are playing with it, not me. For “I” am saying Olam means “age” or “world”, just like your quote from the Encyclopedia Britannica says it means. But where in this quote do we see the word “eternity” rendered from Olam? IT’S NOT THERE!! You are PUTTING it there every time though, automatically.
Again this is what you are doing: If I had two cats, one WHITE and the other BLACK. One of them is getting out of the house. So to distinguish the cat that is getting out you would say “Your BLACK cat is getting out”. You would NOT say “the BLACK is getting out” or “the BLACKNESS is getting out” would you?? You wouldn’t use the DESCRIPTION of the cat as the DEFINITION of cat would you?? But this is what you are doing with Olam.
I would probably take a pretty good guess to say that if you started a conversation about the concept of eternity or infinity with a Rabbi, then he would most likely think the conversation is quite strange. For if a Rabbi states English terms such as “eternal vitality” or “immortal vitality”, he is most likely speaking in terms of “quality” rather than “duration”. I am sorry to keep beating this dead horse with you Mike, but they just didn’t think like us back then. In some respects, not even now.
Interesting stuff; thank you for explaining subtleties in ways that us linguistic neophytes can understand. It felt like I was back in school again (but listened this time...).
I Do think your point that we all tend to view historical issues with insufficient insight is perfectly true and I especially believe you are correct that we all tend to project OUR world and OUR religious beliefs onto the ancients. I think this is, to some extent, inevitable and unavoidable. However, once armed with the recognition that this is the human tendency, you think we'd understand that current historical models HAVE TO BE somewhat INCORRECT and thus our job is to be finding the errors in our current historical models, rather than simply seeking to confirm current concepts as being without error.
Thanks for the lesson in grammar.
Clear
Thank you Clear. Especially for the bolded portion. This is true. Etymology has its good points in studying, but historical "usage" of words are the key to understanding the thought being conveyed by the original author.
Mike, you are missing the point of the whole thing, you say….
No…no…no.. I am NOT acknowledging that an “olam” can be DEFINED as “eternity”, that is what YOU want everybody to think. What I am saying is that the DEFINITION of “olam” is simply “an age” (more precisely, “an obscure hidden period of time”). It is NOT “eternity” as you keep trying to force it to be. The reason I used word “eternity” in my comment was to show that the LENGTH of an “age” has NOTHING to do with the definition.
What YOU are “putting together” is YOUR understanding of “eternity” with THEIR “Olam”. Hence, this is why you are ALWAYS saying “eternal age”. THEY are simply saying “age”, but YOU add “eternal” to it. Like I said, they didn’t think like you do Mike.
Of all the studies I have done on the Hebrews concept of time, I have found that they just did NOT have, or even THINK, in the concept of “eternity” or “abstract infinity”. They simply lived in the NOW. You and I think of linear time, while they, on the other hand thought in circular time. More noteworthy, our time proceeds in “order” (or chronologically), while their time was looked at in a “qualitative” sense. What they wait for is to live in the NOW of the “olam” that is coming, they just didn’t trouble themselves with this concept of “eternity”. Time for them was “vitality” in the NOW. If one does not have vitality now, then time does not exist.
What you are doing or “adding” to their concept of “olam”, is YOUR duration of it. They just didn’t think that way. You are concerned with how LONG the NOW is going to last, while they were only concern with the “Life of NOW” in THAT Olam.
Case in point…..you are quoting things in the English language like the following…
We who read English are reading such phrases here as: “the world to come”….”the world after death”….”this world”. Now, NOT ONCE do we see that the Hebrew “olam ha-ba” is being rendered in English as “the ETERNITY to come”. For they STILL maintain that it is a “world” or an “age”. You want olam to mean “eternity” because that is your understanding of HOW LONG the last Olam lasts. You add this every time like when you say…
Here you are DESCRIBING the two olams. One is a “temporal world” and the other is an “eternal world”. Well, lets just get rid of the words “temporal” and “eternal”. What are we left with then? We are left with the single word “WORLD” in either case for Olam. And that’s ALL it means…”a world”….”an age”….”an era”. Once again, you cannot use your DESCRIPTIONS of them as its DEFINITION. In regards to my replies, you state…
….but it is YOU who are playing with it, not me. For “I” am saying Olam means “age” or “world”, just like your quote from the Encyclopedia Britannica says it means. But where in this quote do we see the word “eternity” rendered from Olam? IT’S NOT THERE!! You are PUTTING it there every time though, automatically.
No. It is you who are playing with it. You want to isolate the word 'Olam' from its context. Separate it from the words which accompany it which define its meaning. See below.
Quote:
Again this is what you are doing: If I had two cats, one WHITE and the other BLACK. One of them is getting out of the house. So to distinguish the cat that is getting out you would say “Your BLACK cat is getting out”. You would NOT say “the BLACK is getting out” or “the BLACKNESS is getting out” would you?? You wouldn’t use the DESCRIPTION of the cat as the DEFINITION of cat would you?? But this is what you are doing with Olam.
I would probably take a pretty good guess to say that if you started a conversation about the concept of eternity or infinity with a Rabbi, then he would most likely think the conversation is quite strange. For if a Rabbi states English terms such as “eternal vitality” or “immortal vitality”, he is most likely speaking in terms of “quality” rather than “duration”. I am sorry to keep beating this dead horse with you Mike, but they just didn’t think like us back then. In some respects, not even now.
It is you who are missing the point. Try to get this through your head. The whole point of this thread is to show how the Jewish mind thought of 'Haolam Ha-ba. I have provided ample documentation in the various links which were provided. None of this is my interpretation.
Within Judaism, the term Chayei Sha'ah refers to fleeting life; life in this world (Olam Hazeh).
The term Chayim Olam refers to eternal life; life in the world to come (HaOlam Ha-ba.).
Excerpt:
An interesting insight comes from how the term "eternal life", chayei olam (Hi-YAY Oh-LAHM) was understood by Jews in Jesus' time.1 While the phrase often had our understanding of life after death, chayei olam often had a different emphasis, when it was contrasted with "chayei sha'ah" (fleeting life). Chayei sha'ah, fleeting life, is living a life that is only concerned about everyday things - working, making money, eating, and sleeping. Chayei olam, "lasting life" or "a life of eternity" refers to living a life focused on matters of eternal importance. Eternal Life - Chayei Olam
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In Jewish theology, Haolam Ha-ba - the world to come is a somewhat ambiguous term which includes the following definitions. ''The world after death'', ''the world of resurrection'', ''or the new creation or restoration of the world that is to follow the messianic Millennium.
Now pay attention to what Rabbi A. Leib Scheinbaum Hebrew Academy of Cleveland wrote. Which by the way I have already posted once.
Targum Onkelos explains the words, V'chai bahem, "By which he shall live," as referring to chayei alma, eternal life. In other words, as the Chafetz Chaim, zl, explains in his preface to the Mishnah Berurah, the Torah is the spiritual food of the neshamah, soul. By studying Torah in this world, we are preparing ourselves for chayei olam, eternal life in Olam Habba. This is the meaning of the phrase, V'chayei olam nota b'esocheinu, "He planted eternal life within us." With the study of Torah, we plant the seeds from which we will one day subsist in the eternal world. Hebrew Academy Parsha Sheet
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I also have previously provided this link which speaks to the Hebrew concept of time.
Just to make sure that you understand, none of what I have posted on this thread is my interpretation. All definitions are those from the various links which have been posted.
Last edited by Michael Way; 04-03-2011 at 03:57 AM..
Just to make sure that you understand, none of what I have posted on this thread is my interpretation. All definitions are those from the various links which have been posted.
Rest assured, Mike . . . very few here would believe your posts are the result of your independent reasoning and interpretations. They are the "precepts and doctrines of men" that you have been indoctrinated with. The problem is the entire CONTEXT used by your mentors is WRONG. They are interpreting using the context of a God believed by ignorant primitives to be plagued by the negative human psychological weaknesses of Jealousy, Anger, Vengeance, Wrath, Egotism, etc. etc. God has NONE of those weaknesses so their entire context is biased . . . resulting in absurd interpretations of the significance of events and the motivations and intentions toward us etc. attributed to God.
Rest assured, Mike . . . very few here would believe your posts are the result of your independent reasoning and interpretations.
That's not entirely correct, especially when hearing him say that which is past, and that which is future?
He uses the term eternity-past or eternity-future, which carries the denotation of time and direction, specifically
indicating the "days of old" or "generations" to come, having a beginning or end; not the connotation of never-ending time, as he insinuates. If he did not twist or shape the meaning into endlessness, several of his doctrines would crumble.
Jonah (chapter 2) was in "hell"(sheol) "forever"(olam). This was a punishment by God. Jonah's "eternal hell" lasted only 3 days, as long as Jonah needed to reflect and repent. When (not if) he cried out to God he was saved.
The mountains are called "everlasting"(olam), the Mosaic covenant is called "everlasting"(olam), the slave was to serve his master "forever"(olam). All these are clear Olam is "an age of unknown duration".
When Jesus (Matt 25:46) quotes Daniel 12:2, we only have to look back at other things that were talked of as "Olam", and we see they are of a time (some short, some long). God punished Jonah "olam", Daniel says He will also punish others "olam". Jesus was only quoting Daniel's "olam punishment" which (as we see in Jonah's case) has the puropse of turning back to God in repentance.
The big question is this: Is the human's will to remain lost greater than the will of God to save him? I think not.
Rest assured, Mike . . . very few here would believe your posts are the result of your independent reasoning and interpretations. They are the "precepts and doctrines of men" that you have been indoctrinated with. The problem is the entire CONTEXT used by your mentors is WRONG. They are interpreting using the context of a God believed by ignorant primitives to be plagued by the negative human psychological weaknesses of Jealousy, Anger, Vengeance, Wrath, Egotism, etc. etc. God has NONE of those weaknesses so their entire context is biased . . . resulting in absurd interpretations of the significance of events and the motivations and intentions toward us etc. attributed to God.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveThyneighbor
Jonah (chapter 2) was in "hell"(sheol) "forever"(olam). This was a punishment by God. Jonah's "eternal hell" lasted only 3 days, as long as Jonah needed to reflect and repent. When (not if) he cried out to God he was saved.
The mountains are called "everlasting"(olam), the Mosaic covenant is called "everlasting"(olam), the slave was to serve his master "forever"(olam). All these are clear Olam is "an age of unknown duration".
When Jesus (Matt 25:46) quotes Daniel 12:2, we only have to look back at other things that were talked of as "Olam", and we see they are of a time (some short, some long). God punished Jonah "olam", Daniel says He will also punish others "olam". Jesus was only quoting Daniel's "olam punishment" which (as we see in Jonah's case) has the puropse of turning back to God in repentance.
The big question is this: Is the human's will to remain lost greater than the will of God to save him? I think not.
Amen! We will reap whatever we sow . . . no more and no less.
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We will reap whatever we sow . . . no more and no less.
