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I agree, I was coming from the standpoint of the idea that is promoted that God can do absolutely anything.
If God can do absolutely anything, then it would of been nothing for him to create us in a realm where we never experienced evil and were no less for it. The implications of being less for not learning the things you list is only evident because you are aware of evil now. I was speculating on the idea of having nothing negative to draw a conclusion with in the first place.
So mainly what I am saying is that under the paradigm that God can do absolutely anything we can imagine, then we can reflect upon the nature of a God who subjected us to evil for a purpose when he could of accomplished that purpose without subjecting us to evil.
Rafius, Phaze, I think we are coming to some sort of agreement!
I mostly agree with Phaze here in that God being "all-powerful" does not mean He can do absolutely anything at all - namely He cannot do the illogical.
Phaze concludes:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood
The very nature of that problem is why I have come to believe that God cannot do absolutely anything we can imagine.
So the question becomes, what is the optimal end result. We can imagine two scenarios:
1. we never experience evil, and achieve some level of "happiness"
2. we experience evil temporarily, and achieve a full understanding of goodness and love, which leads to real peace and happiness
If we look at it logically in terms of what God can do, if there is no evil, then love cannot be fully experienced or understood (given that components of love - compassion, protection, etc are contingent on having an understanding of evil). Therefore scenario 1 would not lead us to maximum opportunity for happiness/goodness, (happiness/goodness is related to love).
Scenario 2 would allow us to fully come to understand love and maximum happiness - it would also allow us to come to a full knowledge of all truth.
It would be illogical for us to learn or understand compassion/protection without knowing what evil is.
As suggested I am starting a new thread about this because it was taking another thread off topic. I'll just quote myself here as to what I think about the whole situation.
I imagine that ***** is one who believes that God didn't create sin. I've noticed a lot of fundamentalists believe God can't be responsible for or is not capable of being all in all and isn't the Creator of everything. Even though the following scripture CLEARLY shows that He created it ALL:
Isaiah 45:6-8
6 so that from the rising of the sun
to the place of its setting
people may know there is none besides me.
I am the LORD, and there is no other.
7 I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.
8 “You heavens above, rain down my righteousness;
let the clouds shower it down.
Let the earth open wide,
let salvation spring up,
let righteousness flourish with it; I, the LORD, have created it.
They also believe that God doesn't always get what he wants or desires, which is also not true:
2 Samuel 14:14
Like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be recovered, so we must die. But that is not what Goddesires; rather, he devises ways so that a banished person does not remain banished from him.
See that? God "devises" ways so that a banished person does not remain banished from HIM!!!! Hallelujah!!
1 Timothy 2:3-5
3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
God desires it and He WILL have ALL men to be saved! So Rafius, I think I'm pretty accurate when I say that ***** will probably deny that God created evil but if we are to believe what the Bible says then a Christian cannot deny what these scriptures are saying. They can, but it's futile.
I suppose your next question would be WHY? Why did God create evil? That's a good question and I think I'll quote another poster from another thread on this one because it's a great post:
Ilene,
Good of you to open this HOT TOPIC that so many have very burning opinions about.
To my mind, both heaven and hell are within, and also without (in this world) in within our minds. Obviously,mortality itself ensures that anyone (all of us) who participate in the experience of living must experience a world of duality/opposites -- good/evil, up/down, left/right, to be/or not to be, haves and have-nots, sickness/health, etc.... In other words, to experience BEING, there must be this duality in order for the divine to manifest itself into time and space. But the notions many people have about God are rather uninformed, so much so that it doesn't take much more than reading a few books by even humorous men like Martin Zender (for example) to demonstrate how ridiculous some of our God-ideas truly are.
To see so many people suffering mentally and emotionally because of the terror-istic tactics and blindness of the religious dogma held within the strongholds of various sects is a source of profound sadness to those who have been given a vision of the vastness of hope and the breadth of God's love. Be that, as it may, the glory of BEING comes at a price - the price of experiencing terror within the heart and mind. And I think that is the way it is supposed to be (or at least, has to be).
Presently I'm in a hard place, but not as hard a place as some I've been in. We must all find our place in the Son.
Heartsong
There's no way to really answer that question because He's God and He can do whatever He pleases. But we do know that this life is temporary and He has something much much much better awaiting us ALL after death. Some will deny that He doesn't have a plan for ALL of us, just some of us, but the scriptures speak for themselves.
Actually the Hebrew word for disaster is mistranslated...the Hebrew word actually means evil...And you can't apply Samuel to gentiles when he was speaking to Jews...What is evil?...sin is disobeidience to Hawyaw's word...If Hawyaw told you to kill a person and you refused...that would be sin...If Hawyaw told you to spare a person and you killed him, that would be sin...Sin is doing contrary to His Word...A lot of this i agree with you on though...
If God is all loving, we can believe that God is all giving.
An unfolding perpetual giving.
In order to give, there must be something which can receive which will allow
recognition or distinguish the giving.
A person cannot give or...love someone who does not receive or need the love as a valued gesture or marked significance.
The problem is mans overall lack or non perfection which receives this giving is variable in order to distinguish the maker or creator of his being. Through choice. Allowing for appreciation in God
The "lack" to perfection being necessarily variable is taken to the limit by man in a swirling descend and in its furthermost depths becomes that of
evil or sin.
The words themselves..evil...sin, are used so much that we forget the full dimension of what were considering. They are basically in place representing an absence of ability through a disorder in attitude to being "available " for the giving. We need the giving .
If God is all loving or all giving, it wouldn't seem realistic to jump out of character at any point. Any thought of God in anything but all giving would be a mis-place in designation God figure. Like a rolling wheel. Try to consider a wheel not rolling. It becomes a stationary wheel....NOT a rolling wheel. (Not an all giving God)
The rolling wheel can only go forward. Yet it must roll. The ground it rolls on if bumpy ( a sinful person) will impede the rolling or giving....relative to recieving by the person... It continues to roll, roll, roll. Give , Give, Give.
Considering that God made evil is to ask the rolling wheel to change directions. The evil is simply a bump in the road due to mans abject dis-ordered behaviour which individually creates self caused lack of received momentum in the rolling wheel. (No recieved Gods giving equals evil , sinfullness..we cut God off when we reject creation as possible by rejecting good will to our fellow man ) The wheel continues. God would be God. Man is man.
Balance. Yin-Yang. In the world we know, everything must have an opposite. The Seven Deadly Sins need the Seven Lively Virtues to have any meaning. Concepts of "sin" and "virtue" are reliant upon one another. Our universe is made up of matching pairs of opposites, which is why we can comprehend it scientifically.
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
God created all humans with free will, and free will means that you are free to obey God or disobey Him. What is sin? Sin is described in the Bible as transgression of the law of God and rebellion against him. Even the angels have free will and Lucifer chose to rebel against God. this is called sin. So I would say that when God created this world giving free will to us, he knew some would use their free will to disobey Him. God will NOT force his will on any of us though. in some cases, reading the Bible we can see God uses his sovereign will to intervene but he just won't force everyone to accept the gift of salvation. You see, God wants all humans to come to the conclusion that they really need Jesus Christ, He wants them to make this choice by themselves without anyone forcing them to do so. God shows us two paths. one to eternal life and one to destruction. We have free will, so we must decide! we are responsible for the consequences of our bad choices, so if someone goes into perdition it is because he chose to do so. by not accepting the gift of eternal life, by denying Jesus, he made his bad choice himself, knowing there could be much at stake... He is to blame. The reason why I cannot support universal reconciliation is to me universalism simply means that "obey or disobey, love or hate, believe or don't believe, you WILL ULTIMATELY BE SAVED ANYWAY, PERIOD!" so you don't have to accept God's free gift, He will make a choice instead of you, no matter what. God is just and in scriptures, so many passages explain that there are two paths. one to eternal life and one to destruction. the choice is in our hands.
That's what I believe also, we must have evil to balance the good or we would not learn the lessons that God requires us to learn in this life.
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
As suggested I am starting a new thread about this because it was taking another thread off topic. I'll just quote myself here as to what I think about the whole situation.
I imagine that ***** is one who believes that God didn't create sin. I've noticed a lot of fundamentalists believe God can't be responsible for or is not capable of being all in all and isn't the Creator of everything. Even though the following scripture CLEARLY shows that He created it ALL:
Isaiah 45:6-8
6 so that from the rising of the sun
to the place of its setting
people may know there is none besides me.
I am the LORD, and there is no other.
7 I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.
8 “You heavens above, rain down my righteousness;
let the clouds shower it down.
Let the earth open wide,
let salvation spring up,
let righteousness flourish with it; I, the LORD, have created it.
They also believe that God doesn't always get what he wants or desires, which is also not true:
2 Samuel 14:14
Like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be recovered, so we must die. But that is not what Goddesires; rather, he devises ways so that a banished person does not remain banished from him.
See that? God "devises" ways so that a banished person does not remain banished from HIM!!!! Hallelujah!!
1 Timothy 2:3-5
3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
God desires it and He WILL have ALL men to be saved! So Rafius, I think I'm pretty accurate when I say that ***** will probably deny that God created evil but if we are to believe what the Bible says then a Christian cannot deny what these scriptures are saying. They can, but it's futile.
I suppose your next question would be WHY? Why did God create evil? That's a good question and I think I'll quote another poster from another thread on this one because it's a great post:
Ilene,
Good of you to open this HOT TOPIC that so many have very burning opinions about.
To my mind, both heaven and hell are within, and also without (in this world) in within our minds. Obviously,mortality itself ensures that anyone (all of us) who participate in the experience of living must experience a world of duality/opposites -- good/evil, up/down, left/right, to be/or not to be, haves and have-nots, sickness/health, etc.... In other words, to experience BEING, there must be this duality in order for the divine to manifest itself into time and space. But the notions many people have about God are rather uninformed, so much so that it doesn't take much more than reading a few books by even humorous men like Martin Zender (for example) to demonstrate how ridiculous some of our God-ideas truly are.
To see so many people suffering mentally and emotionally because of the terror-istic tactics and blindness of the religious dogma held within the strongholds of various sects is a source of profound sadness to those who have been given a vision of the vastness of hope and the breadth of God's love. Be that, as it may, the glory of BEING comes at a price - the price of experiencing terror within the heart and mind. And I think that is the way it is supposed to be (or at least, has to be).
Presently I'm in a hard place, but not as hard a place as some I've been in.
We must all find our place in the Son.
Heartsong
There's no way to really answer that question because He's God and He can do whatever He pleases. But we do know that this life is temporary and He has something much much much better awaiting us ALL after death. Some will deny that He doesn't have a plan for ALL of us, just some of us, but the scriptures speak for themselves.
There is a distinct difference between ‘sin’ and ‘evil’. If you read Romans 5:12, it is clear that ‘sin’ entered the world as a result of man, not ‘god’. ‘Sin’ is a “mistake”, a “missing of the mark”, and “falling short of the glory of ‘god’ (Rom 3:23). ‘Sin’ is the result of spiritually weak human beings tested by the pulls and lust (desires) of their flesh. When that lust or desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin, and sin, when it is full-grown up, brings forth death” (Jas 1:14,15). Now to quote to Isaiah 25:7. The verse says, “I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create calamity [‘evil’ KJV, ‘disaster’ NIV, ‘woe’ NRSV]; I the Lord do all these things.” ‘God’ creates peace and ‘he’ creates ‘evil’, disaster, or woe. ‘God’ is the creator of ‘evil’ in this sense. So, there is a difference between ‘sin’ and ‘evil’. I just wanted to point this out to you.
Even with Finn's proposal it does not "get God off the hook" so to speak. Not that God even needs to be "gotten off the hook".
If God allows Himself to be "shut out" and His presence is "removed" (sidebar: isn't God omnipresent?), then by those very acts of God allowing those things to happen, He is allowing and effectually creating evil.
We can reason further:
1. evil exists in the universe
2. God created the universe
3. therefore God created evil... if God had not created the universe, evil would not have existed.
4. (unless you want to admit that evil preexisted and is bigger than God)
Possible answers as to why He would do this:
1. God is evil
2. God made a mistake and evil crept in unbeknownst to God
3. God actually had a good purpose for evil, and ultimately evil will be done away with.
I reject the first two possible answers as they don't fit with the all-powerful God who is love as described in the bible. We can reason that the 3rd answer is the correct one. As others have pointed out, we could not understand or experience goodness if evil never existed. Furthermore scripture even confirms this.
We could not learn and gain positive virtues to ultimately become like God's character if we did not have any understanding or experience of evil.
For example, God is teaching us these attributes:
- compassion
- endurance
- patience
- forgiveness
But notice for each of these good and positive attributes, an understanding and experience of evil is necessary in order to fully understand the positive attribute.
We could not know what forgiveness is if we never had to forgive someone of an evil act. We could not know what compassion is if no one ever suffered any evil and therefore there was no reason to feel compassion for anyone.
Notice that all of these positive virtues are part of LOVE. Read 1 Cor 13.
That is the point.
God is Love. We are being made into His image, which is love. And therefore an understanding and experience of evil is necessary.
The super simple proof for why God created evil:
1. God is love
2. Love does not delight in evil (1 Cor 13, NIV version)
3. Therefore in order for God to make us into His image (which is love), we need to have an understanding and experience of evil so we know how to not delight in it
4. THEREFORE evil is purposeful for God's plans and will be done away with when it is no longer needed
Hawyaw does not allow anything...He decrees it...
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