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God created evil and sin in order that His Son The Lord Jesus Christ could overcome it and defeat the devil for His Glory, it was a Predestinated Eternal Purpose !
God created evil and sin in order that His Son The Lord Jesus Christ could overcome it and defeat the devil for His Glory, it was a Predestinated Eternal Purpose !
God created evil and sin in order that His Son The Lord Jesus Christ could overcome it and defeat the devil for His Glory, it was a Predestinated Eternal Purpose !
Evil=ILL Will.
Love=Good Will
If a person has good will or what we call LOVE for the neighbour..then,
He or She, will declare :
I am a good loving person and should be considered for heavenly bliss by God as I have caused Good Will to be , through my special obedience & inspiration.
Through my choice, I have deemed an occasion of good will to be.
My attentiveness to being what God wants me to be and allowing the
Love of God to outweigh my negative insecure fears, have resulted in...
My choice to extend Gods Love, by creating further occasions of Love.
Above is fairly clear and simple to understand, correct?......check.
If it is not man, who creates the extension of Gods Love by accepting God then he has...NO BUSINESS, expecting a lovely heavenly bliss in result.
We create an extension of either Gods Love...or an absense...that is evil CREATING opportunity out of material fear. Evil is a material based human goof up.
Denying that man creates in his experience evil, you must also DENY
that man creates occasions through the grace of God....for love.
Creating occasions of evil is by way of God? God created this ongoing evil? By what grace?
Good Will or love is not for opportunity but for genuine hope for fellow mans inspiration that there..IS a Loving God, as reflected through care without ...opportunity in self.....in other words good will...Love.
God..( God The Father.....IS..(The Holy Spirit....Love.( Our Lord
Where is the evil in above? In order to create evil...unless of course you all would prefer a material God....creating evil for opportunity out of fear..so we will then have a..
Fearful, Material God....with available grace for evil...is that what you would prefer?
Clear said in POST #254 : Though I disagree on minor details, I think Legoman is on the right path in his thinking regarding the specific purpose of evil inside of God’s plan.
His answer intuitively touches lightly on important themes described in the early sacred Judao-Christian creation council texts describing the discussions in heaven before the creation of the earth (i.e. the time when the “war in heaven” and the expulsion of the increasingly evil Lucifer took place). Richard 1995 relates in POST #260 From the Jewish perspective, Satan is merely a tester, or adversary...Which is the meaning of the Hebrew word Satan...Lucifer, on the other hand is a bringer of the light...this may indicate that Satan and Lucifer are not one and the same entities...Which could explain the reason why Satan was able to stand with the rest of the host before the father in heaven...Jews consider Satan as the tester angel used by God as a tool to develop mankind...Sort of like a drill instructor in basic training... “
Richard1969 ; Thanks for the point you made :
I believe the more modern Jews are perfectly correct in the specific point that God allows Satan his influence insofar as he serves the purposes of God “as a tool to develop mankind”. This seemed to be the gist of Legoman's point as well.
What makes Lucifer-Satan-Beelebub, Azazael, Ibis, etc. evil is (among other things...) HIS intent (which is not to simply educate mankind, despite him serving this purpose). The history of Lucifer-Satan from early Judao-Christian texts are very clear on some points in his history and a bit more “murky” on other points. They point out that Lucifer was indeed an angel in authority before God (thus one may assume he had qualities sufficient to suit this role and was not a purely rebellious entity before the various controversies resulted in his rebellion and expulsion).
There is a great deal from various sacred Judao-christian texts and the early doctrines as to Lucifer becoming “the Devil”. I think it is an important historical context to keep in mind that Lucifer’s “fall” did not happen in a vacuum but it occurred in the context of several controversies
Perhaps I can make my point if we consider the most famous historical controversy in the early Judao-Christian literature; That being Lucifer's refusal at the honoring of Adam which itself takes place in the greater context of God the Fathers Plan. I was trying to point out in POST 254 that none of these issues associated with “evil” are to be best understood in any other context than the context in which they first developed fully.
Consider the “fall” of satan in early Judao-Christianity for example :
The events surrounding his fall are best understood INSIDE the ancient context of God’s original plan and Lucifer’s fall in relation to it. It is contextually important to understand that, to this ancient Judao-christian theology :
1) The spirits of angels, men and God existed prior to mortality
2) God the Father’s developed a plan entailed moral advancement of the spirits of men
3) Adam was to be honored in view of his role in God’s plan for mankind
4) Lucifer refused to honor Adam, but his “rebellion” became more than a simple refusal to “honor Adam”.
5) Lucifer’s “punishment” relates to his rebellion against the plan AND God himself
6) Lucifer’s current “dominion” plays a “role” in God’s ultimate plan
Without considering conditions PRIOR to Lucifer’s rebellion, then the rebellion cannot be understood as the ancient Christians (who wrote the texts) understood it. Without considering the nature of the rebellion, then Lucifer’s punishment and his current dominion cannot be understood as the ancient Christians understood and taught such doctrines.
A) GOD THE FATHER’S PLAN FOR MAN, (WHICH LUCIFER ULTIMATELY REBELS AGAINST)
Long before the creation of this world, God was in the midst of spirits. Early textual testimonies describe innumerable spirits existing in “heaven” before creation and, they describe what God intended to do with these innumerable spirits.
Regarding his vision of pre-creation heaven, Enoch records : "No one could come near unto him [God the Father] from among those that surrounded the tens of millions (that stood) before him". (1 En 14:23). Enoch continues :
Quote:
"I saw a hundred thousand times a hundred thousand, ten million times ten million, an innumerable and uncountable (multitude) who stand before the glory of the Lord of the Spirits". (1 Enoch 40:1-2)"
Quote:
“At the time that the Holy One, be blessed, was about to create the world, he decided to fashion all the souls which would in due course be dealt out to the children of men, .... Scrutinizing each, he saw that among them some would fall into evil ways in the world. Each one in it’s due time the Holy One, be blessed, bade come to him, and then said: “Go now, descend into this that this place, into this and this body.” (The Zohar - The Destiny of the Soul)
God was in the midst of spirits of all the spirits who ever lived or will live on this earth according to such early texts.
B) BECAUSE GOD WAS INTELLIGENT AND POSSESSED POWER AND CHARITY, HE DEVISED A PLAN SO AS TO ALLOW OTHER SPIRITS TO ADVANCE
The ancient Jewish doctrine that God had instituted a divine plan is interwoven into multiple texts : "Before all things came to be, he [God] has ordered all their designs" (Dead Sea Scrolls 4Q255-264)
Quote:
“....I (the Father), in the midst of the light (glory), moved around in the invisible things, like one of them, as the sun moves around from east to west and from west to east. But the sun has rest; yet I did not find rest, because everything was not yet created. And I thought up the idea of establishing a foundation, to create a visible creation." (2nd Enoch 24:4)
The Prophet Enoch describes the earliest stages of this plan before it was known among the heavenly host : "for not even to my angels have I explained my secrets, nor related to them their origin, nor my endless and inconceivable creation which I conceived." (2nd Enoch 24:3) In these descriptions of his Plan, God the Father seems to take great care in both the planning of and in ensuring the deep involvement of the Heavenly Hosts (for whose benefit the plan existed).
Though these texts tell us that all the spirits of men existed before the creation of the earth, the spirits were in no way equals (just as we are not equal now). Among them were the more intelligent and gifted; i.e. those who were more full of grace and truth than others. In addition to Lucifer, God the Father and Adam, all other key players are all present in this pre-mortal realm. In Enoch’s vision, he also see’s the pre-mortal Jesus with the Father. Upon seeing the two together, Enoch asks who this individual (Jesus) is and what role he has in the Father's Plan :
Quote:
"At that place, I saw the Beginning of days [i.e. the Father] And his head was white like wool, and there was with him another individual, whose face was like that of a human being. His countenance was full of grace like that of one among the holy angels. And I asked the one – from among the angels –who was going with me,..."Who is this and from where could he be, and for what reason does he go with him who precedes time?" And he answered me and said to me, "This is the Son of Man, to whom belongs righteousness, and with whom righteousness dwells...the Lord of the spirits has chosen him, and he is destined to be victorious before the Lord of the spirits in eternal uprightness...." (1 Enoch 46:1-4)
It is in this context that the Apostolic Father Ignatius taught that among those spirits was "Jesus...who before the ages was with the father..” (Ignatius :6:1). The ancient records show the Father and Jesus, from early on, both possessed a great similarity and unity of Purpose. Jesus was given greater authority and administrated much of the Father’s plan from early on (God’s "right hand" was one of the Pre-Creation Jesus’ appellations). Diogenes relates this ancient doctrine :
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"And when he revealed it (his plan) through his beloved Child and made known the things prepared from the beginning, he gave us to share in his benefits and to see and understand things which none of [us] ever would have expected.. So then, having already planned everything in his mind together with his child... (Diog 301:8-11)
C) DESPITE CONCERNS, THE PLAN WAS GENERALLY, RECEIVED JOYOUSLY
Ancient pre-creation histories describe that the Father’s plan, revealed to these spirits before the foundations of the earth were laid was generally joyously received. God’s question to Job was not merely rhetorical, but was a contextual reminder to Job of an actual occurrence.
Quote:
"Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? (Job 38:4-7)
The advancement entailed by God's plan was something the spirits wanted : Enoch says that he saw :
Quote:
"...the fountain of righteousness,...surrounded completely by numerous fountains of wisdom. All the thirsty ones drink (of the water) and become filled with wisdom. (Then) their dwelling places become with the holy, righteous, and elect ones.‘
Who among us would not have wanted to drink from that same wisdom and take their place with others who were holy, righteous and elect?
Jewish Zohar relates mortality to a moral education received by coming to mortality :
Quote:
“...why do they [the spirits of mankind] descend to this world only to be taken thence [back to heaven] at some future time? “This may be explained by way of a simile: A king has a son whom he sends to a village to be educated until he shall have been initiated into the ways of the palace. When the king is informed that his son is now come to maturity, the king, out of his love, sends the matron his mother to bring him back into the palace, and there the king rejoices with him every day..... “ (The zohar - A seal upon your heart)
D) GOD’S PLAN CONTINUED TO PROGRESS
God’s plan moved forward and preparations were made over a great deal of time including a physical creation in preparation for mortality.
Though multiple creation accounts exist, the earlier Christian accounts make it clear both that God created the Planets and Stars (often translated “orbs” or “circles”) out of “lessor”, or more chaotic material, and, importantly, he commissioned the Pre-creation Jesus (Often called “the word” or his “right hand”) to assist him and administrate over this material creation of an earth which will then be populated with embodied spirits for their education and testing.
Thus the early Synagogal prayer reflects this doctrine : “We give thanks to you, O God and Father of Jesus our Savior...O Master Almighty, the God of the universe, you created the world and what is in it through him,... (Hellenistic Synagogal Prayers - thanksgiving following Communion (aposCon 7.26. 1-3) Or prayer #3 “ Blessed are you, O Lord, King of the ages, who through Christ made everything, and through him in the beginning ordered that which was unprepared” (i.e. chaotic matter) (#3 prayer That meditates upon God’s Manifold Creative Power) (aposCon 7.34.1-8) or prayer #4 that addresses God the Father : “For you are the Father of wisdom, the Creator, as cause, of the creative workmanship through a Mediator....” #4 (aposCon 7.35.1-10);
The Jewish Geninza 4Q texts are clear that, despite delegation of important roles, the plan IS the Father’s plan and that he “determined all your works before you created them, together with the host of your spirits and the assembly of your holy ones… - all your designs for the end of time..” God counsels with those whose involvement he wants, but it remains God the Father's plan : “Moreover the Holy One, blessed be he, does nothing in his world without first taking counsel with them; then he acts, as it is written” (3Enoch :4 283). This early Jewish teaching that the physical creation was accomplished for the purpose of advancing mankind is the same tradition as the early Christians held. New Testament Hermas taught :
Quote:
“...don’t you understand how great and mighty and marvelous God’s glory is, because he created the world for the sake of man, and subjected all his creation to man..” (Her 47:2-4).
The physical creation of ancient accounts was accomplished by taking “lessor” or more chaotic matter, and organizing it into a “higher” or more organized and purposeful form such as the organized earth had. Old Testament Enoch describes this process:
Quote:
“And I called out a second time into the very lowest things, and I said, ‘Let one of the (in)visible things come out visibly, solid.’..” (2nd Enoch 26:1).
From this lesser organized, chaotic debris, the earth and other planets were formed :
Quote:
“And thus I made solid the heavenly circles (orbs). ...And from the rocks I assembled the dry land; and I called the dry land Earth. “ (2nd Enoch 28:1-2).
And thus, in company with the Pre-Mortal spirit of Jesus (called "the word” or “the right hand” in some accounts), the Father accomplished creation.
Quote:
“I said, “O Lord, you spoke at the beginning of creation, and said on the first day, ‘Let heaven and earth be made, ‘ and your word accomplished the work...Again, on the second day, you created the spirit of the firmament and commanded him to divide and separate the waters...On the third day you commanded the waters to be gather together...For your word went forth, and at once the work was done. “ (4th Enoch 3:38-42). I believe that is it partly this closely unified and joint administration between God the Father and his Son that contributes to much of the later confusion between Father and Son in later doctrines. In such early texts it is clearly taught that they are two individuals that are profoundly unified (i.e. "one') in purpose.
It is Baruch that reminds us of the innate ability of the spirit of men to advance in knowledge consistent with God’s plan. He says :
Quote:
“For the nature of men is always changeable. For as we were once, we are no longer, and as we are now, we shall not remain in the future. For if an end of all things had not been prepared, their beginning would have been senseless”. (2 Baruch 21:16-17) Even at this early, less sophisticated stage of existence, spirits were able to exercise their agency. Thus the spirits of men were able to exercise choice to take part in this plan despite difficulties they will experience in mortality (as Job was reminded), just as they are allowed moral choice in this life.
Given the grandeur and the pure intent and profound implications of God’s plan for mankind, it may start to make some sense of what it meant for Lucifer, not only to refuse to take part in the plan, but to openly rebel against the plan, and ultimately rebel against God the Father himself.
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E) LUCIFER’S REFUSAL TO HONOR ADAM WAS AN ORTHODOX TEACHING IN EARLY CHRISTIAN RELIGION
Regarding the reference to Lucifer’s refusal to honor Adam, it is important to me that readers understand that I did not simply pick out a single “obscure” reference describing this story. Rather, this early doctrine was taught and described in many texts over a great deal of time and space.
For examples: Sedrach relates :
Quote:
“You commanded your angels to worship [honor] Adam, but he who was first among the angels disobeyed your order and did not worship him: and so you banished him because he transgressed your commandment and did not come forth (to worship) the creation of your hands." (The Apocalypse of Sedrach 5:1-7)
The Christian text “Life of Adam and Eve” relates the same incident : Speaking to Adam, the Devil said :
Quote:
“ ...because of you I am expelled and deprived of my glory which I had in the heavens in the midst of angels, and because of you I was cast out onto the earth.” 2 Adam answered, “What have I done to you, and what is my blame with you? Ch 13 “The devil replied,...It is because of you that I have been thrown out of there. 2 When .......Michael brought you and made (us) worship you in the sight of God, and the Lord God said, ‘Behold Adam! I have made you in our image and likeness.’ Ch 14 3 And I answered, ‘I do not worship Adam.’ ...’Why do you compel me? I will not worship one inferior and subsequent to me. I am prior to him in creation; before he was made, I was already made. He ought to worship me.’ 15 1 When they heard this, other angels who were under me refused to worship him. (Life of Adam and Eve (Vita) 12: 1-2, 13:13, 14:2-3; 15:1-3; 16:1-3)
The early Christian Text “Cave of Treasures” relates
Quote:
“And when the prince of the lower order of angels saw what great majesty had been given unto Adam, he was jealous of him from that day, and he did not wish to worship him. And he said unto his hosts, "Ye shall not worship him, and ye shall not praise him with the angels. It is meet that ye should worship me, because I am fire and spirit; and not that I should worship a thing of dust, which hath been fashioned of fine dust."
Jewish Enoch relates, in the context of this Lucifer’s rebellion :
Quote:
“ the devil understood how I wished to create another world, so that everything could be subjected to Adam on the earth, to rule and reign over it. ....And he became aware of his condemnation and of the sin which he sinned previously. 6 And that is why he thought up the scheme against Adam. (2nd Enoch 31:2-8, 32:1)
Jewish Haggadah (having Talmudic origins) also relates :
Quote:
“The extraordinary qualities with which Adam was blessed, physical and spiritual as well, aroused the envy of the angels...After Adam had been endowed with a soul, God invited all the angels to come and pay him reverence and homage. Satan, the greatest of the angels in heaven,....refused to pay heed to the behest of God, saying, “You created us angels from the splendor of the Shekinah, and now you command us to cast ourselves down before the creature which you fashioned out of the dust of the ground!” God answered, “Yet this dust of the ground has more wisdom and understanding than you.”... (The Haggadah -The Fall of Satan)
The text then relates the "battle of wits" between Lucifers spirit and Adam's spirit where Lucifer is bested and loses "face".
Christian Bartholomew also confirms the story as Lucifer says :
Quote:
“And when I came from the ends of the world, Michael said to me: ‘Worship the image of God which he has made in his own likeness.’ But I said: ‘I am fire of fire. I was the first angel to be formed, and shall I worship clay and matter?” And Michael said to me: ‘Worship, lest god be angry with you.’ I answered: ‘God will not be angry with me, but I will set up my throne over against his throne, and shall be as he is [cf. Isa. 14:14]. ‘ then god was angry with me and cast me down,...” (The Gospel of Bartholomew Ch IV)
This doctrinal controversy is not simply Jewish and Christian in it’s nature, but it’s also confirmed by the Sixth Century Quran text :
Quote:
"..And (remember) when your Lord said to the angels: "I am going to create a man (Adam) from sounding clay of altered black smooth mud. So, when I have fashioned him completely and breathed into him (Adam) the soul which I created for him, then fall (you) down prostrating yourselves unto him." So, the angels prostrated themselves, all of them together. Except Iblis (Satan), - he refused to be among the prostrators. (Sura 15:28-31)
In Sura 20 : “ And (remember) when We said to the angels: "Prostrate yourselves to Adam." They prostrated (all) except Iblis (Satan), who refused. (Sura 20:116)
In Sura 38 : “ (Remember) when your Lord said to the angels: "Truly, I am going to create man from clay". So when I have fashioned him and breathed into him (his) soul created by Me, then you fall down prostrate to him." So the angels prostrated themselves, all of them: Except Iblis (Satan) he was proud and was one of the disbelievers. (Sura 38:71-74)
In Sura 7 :
Quote:
“And surely, We created you (your father Adam) and then gave you shape (the noble shape of a human being), then We told the angels, "Prostrate to Adam", and they prostrated, except Iblis (Satan), he refused to be of those who prostrate. (Allah) said: "What prevented you (O Iblis) that you did not prostrate, when I commanded you?" Iblis said: "I am better than him (Adam), You created me from fire, and him You created from clay." (Sura 7:11-12)
In Sura 18 :
Quote:
“And (remember) when We said to the angels; "Prostrate to Adam." So they prostrated except Iblis (Satan). He was one of the jinns; he disobeyed the Command of his Lord.... (Sura 18:50)
The point in repeating this doctrine from so many different ancient sources and versions is to show that this specific controversy and it’s relation to the doctrine of the “Origin” of Satan, is VERY ancient, the doctrine is VERY widespread among a large group of ancient literature, and the doctrine is VERY “orthodox” to the ancient Christians and other religious groups as well.
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F) THE HONOR DUE ADAM WAS PERFECTLY LOGICAL IN VIEW OF GOD’S PLAN
It was perfectly clear in the early Judao-Christian literature that as milestones were reached in the moving forward of God’s Plan for the spirits of mankind, the inauguration of mortality was an incredibly important phase that all spirits had long been anticipating. Thus, the “honoring of Adam” was not simply an arbitrary and spontaneous “office party” thrown at a whim, but it was a recognition of the culmination of organization and creation over a great deal of time and the inauguration of
the opening phase of mortality of all mankind..
It is Baruch that reminds us of the innate ability of the spirit of men to advance in knowledge consistent with God’s plan. He says :
Quote:
“For the nature of men is always changeable. For as we were once, we are no longer, and as we are now, we shall not remain in the future. For if an end of all things had not been prepared, their beginning would have been senseless”. (2 Baruch 21:16-17) Even at this early, less sophisticated stage of existence, spirits were able to exercise their agency. Thus the spirits of men were able to exercise choice to take part in this plan despite difficulties they will experience in mortality (as Job was reminded), just as they are allowed moral choice in this life.
Given the grandeur and the pure intent and profound implications of God’s plan for mankind, it was clear that it was a profound even for Lucifer to refuse, not only to take part in God the Fathers plan, but to openly rebel against the plan; to influence others to rebel against the plan; and to and ultimately rebel against God the Father himself.
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G) THE NATURE OF LUCIFER’S REBELLION IN THE CONTEXT OF GOD THE FATHER’S PLAN.
The nature of Lucifer’s punishment indicates the seriousness of what he did : When Enoch tells the fallen angel Azaz’el that “There will not be peace unto you; a grave judgment has come upon you. They will put you in bonds because you have taught injustice (1st Enoch 13:1-3), Enoch is not speaking of mere “naughtiness” or mere “disagreement” with God’s plan. Such fallen angels were told “judgment is passed upon you. 5 From now on you will not be able to ascend into heaven unto all eternity, (1st Enoch 14:3-5) because their rebellion had much greater ramifications than simple disagreement with God.
It is in this larger set of contexts that it was said :
Quote:
“And the Rebel meditating these things Fol. 5b, col. 2 would not render obedience to God, and of his own free will he asserted his independence and separated himself from God. But he was - swept away out of heaven and fell, and the fall of himself and of all his company from heaven took place ...because he turned aside from the right way, ... he lost the apparel of his glory. And behold, from that time until the present day, he and all his hosts have been stripped of their apparel, (Cave of Treasures, chapt on “The Revolt of Satan”)
It’s unnecessary to the purpose of this post to discussed the symbolism of Lucifer’s apparel, his armor, and the “names” which were written in his hand (as the christian Abbaton also describes in greater detail), but it’s apparent that Lucifer unwillingly undergoes a ritual removal of his powers and authorities and authority for leadership and, with those angels who took part in his planned rebellion, he is cast down into the earth. However, such histories lend sense and context and confirmation to other histories such as Apocalypse of abraham when Azaz’el is told regarding Abraham “...shame on you Azazel! For Abraham’s portion is in heaven, and yours is on earth, for you have selected here, (and) become enamored of the dwelling place of your blemish. .... For behold, the garment which in heaven was formerly yours has been set aside for him, and the corruption which was on him has gone over to you.” (The Apocalypse of Abraham 13: 4,5,7-14)
Once Lucifer finds himself and his fallen angels on the earth, his own recognition and understanding and sense of what he had done increased, but this recognition was not associated with remorse nor repentance, but rather with an obstinate resolve and desire and plan for revenge (and other motives) and for continuing his rebellion.
Quote:
“..he fled from heaven; Sotona, because his name was satanail. 5 In this way he became different from the angels. His nature did not change, (but) his thought did, since his consciousness of righteous and sinful things changed. And he became aware of his condemnation and of the sin which he sinned previously. 6 And that is why he thought up the scheme against Adam." (2nd Enoch 31:2-8, 32:1)
I hope that it is clear that the early Christian doctrines and texts DID have a sensible concept of the origin of the Devil and for some of the underlying motives as to why Lucifer continues to battle against God and God's plan for the moral education of those among mankind who are willing and wanting to live by the moral laws which will ultimately allow them to live in happiness and harmony.
Compared to modern Christian and modern Jewish theories (or lack of theories), the ancient Judao-Christian doctrines were, (I think), more coherent and more logical and represented a more accurate view of the Devils origin. Restorationists and historians of the period will be aware of many such ancient doctrines, but most theologians do not have background in early Judao-Christian doctrines surrounding the fall of Lucifer and so the fall (and evil) does not make the same logical sense, nor can it be justified upon the same lines as the ancient Judao-Christians understood it. This was the point I was attempting to make in post #254.
Clear
twvetwseeo
Also richard1969 I think the specific underlying distinction your are trying to make regarding the use of the word "creates" versus "uses" is very accurate and true to early Judao-Christianity. The concept underlying "creation" for the ancient Judao-Christians did not imply creaction "ex-nihilo" (i.e. out of "nothing"), but instead, the ancients were well aware that material things were "created" or "organized" from smaller, more chaotic matter.
Last edited by Clear lens; 06-04-2011 at 09:35 AM..
I noticed that I failed to point out shifts in names or appellations of the key players.
Just as the mortal Jesus was called by different names or appellations in his pre-mortal roles (e.g. "The Right Hand", "the righteous one", "the creator", occasionally "the Father" - which is confusing since he is normally "the son", etc), often attached to specific and varying roles he plays, Lucifer and others have different names as well in different texts.
In ancient Christian Texts he is most often "Lucifer" before his fall, and then Satan (or devil, etc) AFTER his fall from heaven. In The Holy Quran, Satan is often referred to as "Iblis". In Jewish records Satan is represented by varying names but Azaz'el, in the quote in the posts above, also refers to Satan. I hope the mixing of various names for Lucifer/Satan/Devil was not confusing. Historians are used to such transitions, but the shift in appellations or names sometimes causes confusion if one is not used to reading them in the ancient literature.
I am speaking from memory on this point, but the great Milton also created another appellation that relates to Lucifers important role in God's plan and that, despite Lucifer's unwillingness, his obstanant rebellion serves the very purposes of God.
Just as Abraham asked why God has any association with Lucifer, the Prophet Sedrach also wondered at the purpose underlying the irony of God, letting Lucifer live :
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“Sedrach said to him. “It was by your will that Adam was deceived, my master. You commanded your angels to worship Adam, but he who was first among the angels disobeyed your order and did not worship him: and so you banished him because he transgressed your commandment and did not come forth (to worship) the creation of your hands. If you loved man, why did you not kill the devil, the artificer of all iniquity? Who can fight against an invisible spirit? He enters the hearts of men like a smoke and teaches them all kinds of sin. He even fights against you, the immortal God, and so what can pitiful man do against him..... (The Apocalypse of Sedrach 5:1-7)
I suppose it would take several posts to discuss the importance of Lucifers role, but I think the Dead Sea Scrolls are clear regarding Lucifer's necessary role :
These Jews taught regarding the struggle between Good and Evil :
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“The character and fate of all humankind reside with these spirits. All the hosts of humanity, generation by generation, are heirs to these spiritual divisions, walking according to their ways; ... God has appointed these spirits as equals until the last age, and set an everlasting enmity between their divisions. False deeds are thus an abomination to the truth, whereas all the ways of truth are for perversity equally a disgrace. Fierce dispute attends ever point of decision, for they can never agree. In his mysterious insight and glorious wisdom God has countenanced an era in which perversity triumphs, but at the time appointed for visitation He shall destroy such forever. Then shall truth come forth in victory upon the earth. [...] Until now the spirits of truth and perversity have contended within the human heart. All people walk in both wisdom and foolishness. As is a person’s endowment of truth and righteousness, so shall he hate perversity; conversely, in proportion to bequest in the lot of evil, one will act wickedly and abominate truth. God has appointed these spirits as equals until the time of decree and renewal. He foreknows the outworking of their deeds for all the ages of eternity. He has granted them dominion over humanity, so imparting knowledge of good and evil, deciding the fate of every living being by the measure of which spirit predominates in him, until the day of the appointed visitation.” CHARTER OF A JEWISH SECTARIAN ASSOCIATION 1QS, 4Q255-264a, 5Q11 Col 4 vs 15-26
In this early model, Mankind are placed in the middle of good and evil, and allowed their own choice. In this model, Mankind's fate is decided by how they used their free will and choice in doing good and evil and which of the two come to predominate in an individuals heart. We are ultimately punished for the evil we chose to do, and ultimately rewarded for the good that we chose to do.
In any case; good luck in coming up with your own views as to what you are to believe about these issues. I hope you have a good journey along the way.
Clear said in POST #254 : Though I disagree on minor details, I think Legoman is on the right path in his thinking regarding the specific purpose of evil inside of God’s plan.
His answer intuitively touches lightly on important themes described in the early sacred Judao-Christian creation council texts describing the discussions in heaven before the creation of the earth (i.e. the time when the “war in heaven” and the expulsion of the increasingly evil Lucifer took place). Richard 1995 relates in POST #260 From the Jewish perspective, Satan is merely a tester, or adversary...Which is the meaning of the Hebrew word Satan...Lucifer, on the other hand is a bringer of the light...this may indicate that Satan and Lucifer are not one and the same entities...Which could explain the reason why Satan was able to stand with the rest of the host before the father in heaven...Jews consider Satan as the tester angel used by God as a tool to develop mankind...Sort of like a drill instructor in basic training... “
Richard1969 ; Thanks for the point you made :
I believe the more modern Jews are perfectly correct in the specific point that God allows Satan his influence insofar as he serves the purposes of God “as a tool to develop mankind”. This seemed to be the gist of Legoman's point as well.
What makes Lucifer-Satan-Beelebub, Azazael, Ibis, etc. evil is (among other things...) HIS intent (which is not to simply educate mankind, despite him serving this purpose). The history of Lucifer-Satan from early Judao-Christian texts are very clear on some points in his history and a bit more “murky” on other points. They point out that Lucifer was indeed an angel in authority before God (thus one may assume he had qualities sufficient to suit this role and was not a purely rebellious entity before the various controversies resulted in his rebellion and expulsion).
There is a great deal from various sacred Judao-christian texts and the early doctrines as to Lucifer becoming “the Devil”. I think it is an important historical context to keep in mind that Lucifer’s “fall” did not happen in a vacuum but it occurred in the context of several controversies
Perhaps I can make my point if we consider the most famous historical controversy in the early Judao-Christian literature; That being Lucifer's refusal at the honoring of Adam which itself takes place in the greater context of God the Fathers Plan. I was trying to point out in POST 254 that none of these issues associated with “evil” are to be best understood in any other context than the context in which they first developed fully.
Consider the “fall” of satan in early Judao-Christianity for example :
The events surrounding his fall are best understood INSIDE the ancient context of God’s original plan and Lucifer’s fall in relation to it. It is contextually important to understand that, to this ancient Judao-christian theology :
1) The spirits of angels, men and God existed prior to mortality 2) God the Father’s developed a plan entailed moral advancement of the spirits of men 3) Adam was to be honored in view of his role in God’s plan for mankind 4) Lucifer refused to honor Adam, but his “rebellion” became more than a simple refusal to “honor Adam”. 5) Lucifer’s “punishment” relates to his rebellion against the plan AND God himself 6) Lucifer’s current “dominion” plays a “role” in God’s ultimate plan
Without considering conditions PRIOR to Lucifer’s rebellion, then the rebellion cannot be understood as the ancient Christians (who wrote the texts) understood it. Without considering the nature of the rebellion, then Lucifer’s punishment and his current dominion cannot be understood as the ancient Christians understood and taught such doctrines.
A) GOD THE FATHER’S PLAN FOR MAN, (WHICH LUCIFER ULTIMATELY REBELS AGAINST)
Long before the creation of this world, God was in the midst of spirits. Early textual testimonies describe innumerable spirits existing in “heaven” before creation and, they describe what God intended to do with these innumerable spirits.
Regarding his vision of pre-creation heaven, Enoch records : "No one could come near unto him [God the Father] from among those that surrounded the tens of millions (that stood) before him". (1 En 14:23). Enoch continues :
Quote:
"I saw a hundred thousand times a hundred thousand, ten million times ten million, an innumerable and uncountable (multitude) who stand before the glory of the Lord of the Spirits". (1 Enoch 40:1-2)"
Quote:
“At the time that the Holy One, be blessed, was about to create the world, he decided to fashion all the souls which would in due course be dealt out to the children of men, .... Scrutinizing each, he saw that among them some would fall into evil ways in the world. Each one in it’s due time the Holy One, be blessed, bade come to him, and then said: “Go now, descend into this that this place, into this and this body.” (The Zohar - The Destiny of the Soul)
God was in the midst of spirits of all the spirits who ever lived or will live on this earth according to such early texts.
B) BECAUSE GOD WAS INTELLIGENT AND POSSESSED POWER AND CHARITY, HE DEVISED A PLAN SO AS TO ALLOW OTHER SPIRITS TO ADVANCE
The ancient Jewish doctrine that God had instituted a divine plan is interwoven into multiple texts : "Before all things came to be, he [God] has ordered all their designs" (Dead Sea Scrolls 4Q255-264)
Quote:
“....I (the Father), in the midst of the light (glory), moved around in the invisible things, like one of them, as the sun moves around from east to west and from west to east. But the sun has rest; yet I did not find rest, because everything was not yet created. And I thought up the idea of establishing a foundation, to create a visible creation." (2nd Enoch 24:4)
The Prophet Enoch describes the earliest stages of this plan before it was known among the heavenly host : "for not even to my angels have I explained my secrets, nor related to them their origin, nor my endless and inconceivable creation which I conceived." (2nd Enoch 24:3) In these descriptions of his Plan, God the Father seems to take great care in both the planning of and in ensuring the deep involvement of the Heavenly Hosts (for whose benefit the plan existed).
Though these texts tell us that all the spirits of men existed before the creation of the earth, the spirits were in no way equals (just as we are not equal now). Among them were the more intelligent and gifted; i.e. those who were more full of grace and truth than others. In addition to Lucifer, God the Father and Adam, all other key players are all present in this pre-mortal realm. In Enoch’s vision, he also see’s the pre-mortal Jesus with the Father. Upon seeing the two together, Enoch asks who this individual (Jesus) is and what role he has in the Father's Plan :
Quote:
"At that place, I saw the Beginning of days [i.e. the Father] And his head was white like wool, and there was with him another individual, whose face was like that of a human being. His countenance was full of grace like that of one among the holy angels. And I asked the one – from among the angels –who was going with me,..."Who is this and from where could he be, and for what reason does he go with him who precedes time?" And he answered me and said to me, "This is the Son of Man, to whom belongs righteousness, and with whom righteousness dwells...the Lord of the spirits has chosen him, and he is destined to be victorious before the Lord of the spirits in eternal uprightness...." (1 Enoch 46:1-4)
It is in this context that the Apostolic Father Ignatius taught that among those spirits was "Jesus...who before the ages was with the father..” (Ignatius :6:1). The ancient records show the Father and Jesus, from early on, both possessed a great similarity and unity of Purpose. Jesus was given greater authority and administrated much of the Father’s plan from early on (God’s "right hand" was one of the Pre-Creation Jesus’ appellations). Diogenes relates this ancient doctrine :
Quote:
"And when he revealed it (his plan) through his beloved Child and made known the things prepared from the beginning, he gave us to share in his benefits and to see and understand things which none of [us] ever would have expected.. So then, having already planned everything in his mind together with his child... (Diog 301:8-11)
C) DESPITE CONCERNS, THE PLAN WAS GENERALLY, RECEIVED JOYOUSLY
Ancient pre-creation histories describe that the Father’s plan, revealed to these spirits before the foundations of the earth were laid was generally joyously received. God’s question to Job was not merely rhetorical, but was a contextual reminder to Job of an actual occurrence.
Quote:
"Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? (Job 38:4-7)
The advancement entailed by God's plan was something the spirits wanted : Enoch says that he saw :
Quote:
"...the fountain of righteousness,...surrounded completely by numerous fountains of wisdom. All the thirsty ones drink (of the water) and become filled with wisdom. (Then) their dwelling places become with the holy, righteous, and elect ones.‘
Who among us would not have wanted to drink from that same wisdom and take their place with others who were holy, righteous and elect?
Jewish Zohar relates mortality to a moral education received by coming to mortality :
Quote:
“...why do they [the spirits of mankind] descend to this world only to be taken thence [back to heaven] at some future time? “This may be explained by way of a simile: A king has a son whom he sends to a village to be educated until he shall have been initiated into the ways of the palace. When the king is informed that his son is now come to maturity, the king, out of his love, sends the matron his mother to bring him back into the palace, and there the king rejoices with him every day..... “ (The zohar - A seal upon your heart)
D) GOD’S PLAN CONTINUED TO PROGRESS
God’s plan moved forward and preparations were made over a great deal of time including a physical creation in preparation for mortality.
Though multiple creation accounts exist, the earlier Christian accounts make it clear both that God created the Planets and Stars (often translated “orbs” or “circles”) out of “lessor”, or more chaotic material, and, importantly, he commissioned the Pre-creation Jesus (Often called “the word” or his “right hand”) to assist him and administrate over this material creation of an earth which will then be populated with embodied spirits for their education and testing.
Thus the early Synagogal prayer reflects this doctrine : “We give thanks to you, O God and Father of Jesus our Savior...O Master Almighty, the God of the universe, you created the world and what is in it through him,... (Hellenistic Synagogal Prayers - thanksgiving following Communion (aposCon 7.26. 1-3) Or prayer #3 “ Blessed are you, O Lord, King of the ages, who through Christ made everything, and through him in the beginning ordered that which was unprepared” (i.e. chaotic matter) (#3 prayer That meditates upon God’s Manifold Creative Power) (aposCon 7.34.1-8) or prayer #4 that addresses God the Father : “For you are the Father of wisdom, the Creator, as cause, of the creative workmanship through a Mediator....” #4 (aposCon 7.35.1-10);
The Jewish Geninza 4Q texts are clear that, despite delegation of important roles, the plan IS the Father’s plan and that he “determined all your works before you created them, together with the host of your spirits and the assembly of your holy ones… - all your designs for the end of time..” God counsels with those whose involvement he wants, but it remains God the Father's plan : “Moreover the Holy One, blessed be he, does nothing in his world without first taking counsel with them; then he acts, as it is written” (3Enoch :4 283). This early Jewish teaching that the physical creation was accomplished for the purpose of advancing mankind is the same tradition as the early Christians held. New Testament Hermas taught :
Quote:
“...don’t you understand how great and mighty and marvelous God’s glory is, because he created the world for the sake of man, and subjected all his creation to man..” (Her 47:2-4).
The physical creation of ancient accounts was accomplished by taking “lessor” or more chaotic matter, and organizing it into a “higher” or more organized and purposeful form such as the organized earth had. Old Testament Enoch describes this process:
Quote:
“And I called out a second time into the very lowest things, and I said, ‘Let one of the (in)visible things come out visibly, solid.’..” (2nd Enoch 26:1).
From this lesser organized, chaotic debris, the earth and other planets were formed :
Quote:
“And thus I made solid the heavenly circles (orbs). ...And from the rocks I assembled the dry land; and I called the dry land Earth. “ (2nd Enoch 28:1-2).
And thus, in company with the Pre-Mortal spirit of Jesus (called "the word” or “the right hand” in some accounts), the Father accomplished creation.
Quote:
“I said, “O Lord, you spoke at the beginning of creation, and said on the first day, ‘Let heaven and earth be made, ‘ and your word accomplished the work...Again, on the second day, you created the spirit of the firmament and commanded him to divide and separate the waters...On the third day you commanded the waters to be gather together...For your word went forth, and at once the work was done. “ (4th Enoch 3:38-42). I believe that is it partly this closely unified and joint administration between God the Father and his Son that contributes to much of the later confusion between Father and Son in later doctrines. In such early texts it is clearly taught that they are two individuals that are profoundly unified (i.e. "one') in purpose.
It is Baruch that reminds us of the innate ability of the spirit of men to advance in knowledge consistent with God’s plan. He says :
Quote:
“For the nature of men is always changeable. For as we were once, we are no longer, and as we are now, we shall not remain in the future. For if an end of all things had not been prepared, their beginning would have been senseless”. (2 Baruch 21:16-17) Even at this early, less sophisticated stage of existence, spirits were able to exercise their agency. Thus the spirits of men were able to exercise choice to take part in this plan despite difficulties they will experience in mortality (as Job was reminded), just as they are allowed moral choice in this life.
Given the grandeur and the pure intent and profound implications of God’s plan for mankind, it may start to make some sense of what it meant for Lucifer, not only to refuse to take part in the plan, but to openly rebel against the plan, and ultimately rebel against God the Father himself.
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E) LUCIFER’S REFUSAL TO HONOR ADAM WAS AN ORTHODOX TEACHING IN EARLY CHRISTIAN RELIGION
Regarding the reference to Lucifer’s refusal to honor Adam, it is important to me that readers understand that I did not simply pick out a single “obscure” reference describing this story. Rather, this early doctrine was taught and described in many texts over a great deal of time and space.
For examples: Sedrach relates :
Quote:
“You commanded your angels to worship [honor] Adam, but he who was first among the angels disobeyed your order and did not worship him: and so you banished him because he transgressed your commandment and did not come forth (to worship) the creation of your hands." (The Apocalypse of Sedrach 5:1-7)
The Christian text “Life of Adam and Eve” relates the same incident : Speaking to Adam, the Devil said :
Quote:
“ ...because of you I am expelled and deprived of my glory which I had in the heavens in the midst of angels, and because of you I was cast out onto the earth.” 2 Adam answered, “What have I done to you, and what is my blame with you? Ch 13 “The devil replied,...It is because of you that I have been thrown out of there. 2 When .......Michael brought you and made (us) worship you in the sight of God, and the Lord God said, ‘Behold Adam! I have made you in our image and likeness.’ Ch 14 3 And I answered, ‘I do not worship Adam.’ ...’Why do you compel me? I will not worship one inferior and subsequent to me. I am prior to him in creation; before he was made, I was already made. He ought to worship me.’ 15 1 When they heard this, other angels who were under me refused to worship him. (Life of Adam and Eve (Vita) 12: 1-2, 13:13, 14:2-3; 15:1-3; 16:1-3)
The early Christian Text “Cave of Treasures” relates
Quote:
“And when the prince of the lower order of angels saw what great majesty had been given unto Adam, he was jealous of him from that day, and he did not wish to worship him. And he said unto his hosts, "Ye shall not worship him, and ye shall not praise him with the angels. It is meet that ye should worship me, because I am fire and spirit; and not that I should worship a thing of dust, which hath been fashioned of fine dust."
Jewish Enoch relates, in the context of this Lucifer’s rebellion :
Quote:
“ the devil understood how I wished to create another world, so that everything could be subjected to Adam on the earth, to rule and reign over it. ....And he became aware of his condemnation and of the sin which he sinned previously. 6 And that is why he thought up the scheme against Adam. (2nd Enoch 31:2-8, 32:1)
Jewish Haggadah (having Talmudic origins) also relates :
Quote:
“The extraordinary qualities with which Adam was blessed, physical and spiritual as well, aroused the envy of the angels...After Adam had been endowed with a soul, God invited all the angels to come and pay him reverence and homage. Satan, the greatest of the angels in heaven,....refused to pay heed to the behest of God, saying, “You created us angels from the splendor of the Shekinah, and now you command us to cast ourselves down before the creature which you fashioned out of the dust of the ground!” God answered, “Yet this dust of the ground has more wisdom and understanding than you.”... (The Haggadah -The Fall of Satan)
The text then relates the "battle of wits" between Lucifers spirit and Adam's spirit where Lucifer is bested and loses "face".
Christian Bartholomew also confirms the story as Lucifer says :
Quote:
“And when I came from the ends of the world, Michael said to me: ‘Worship the image of God which he has made in his own likeness.’ But I said: ‘I am fire of fire. I was the first angel to be formed, and shall I worship clay and matter?” And Michael said to me: ‘Worship, lest god be angry with you.’ I answered: ‘God will not be angry with me, but I will set up my throne over against his throne, and shall be as he is [cf. Isa. 14:14]. ‘ then god was angry with me and cast me down,...” (The Gospel of Bartholomew Ch IV)
This doctrinal controversy is not simply Jewish and Christian in it’s nature, but it’s also confirmed by the Sixth Century Quran text :
Quote:
"..And (remember) when your Lord said to the angels: "I am going to create a man (Adam) from sounding clay of altered black smooth mud. So, when I have fashioned him completely and breathed into him (Adam) the soul which I created for him, then fall (you) down prostrating yourselves unto him." So, the angels prostrated themselves, all of them together. Except Iblis (Satan), - he refused to be among the prostrators. (Sura 15:28-31)
In Sura 20 : “ And (remember) when We said to the angels: "Prostrate yourselves to Adam." They prostrated (all) except Iblis (Satan), who refused. (Sura 20:116)
In Sura 38 : “ (Remember) when your Lord said to the angels: "Truly, I am going to create man from clay". So when I have fashioned him and breathed into him (his) soul created by Me, then you fall down prostrate to him." So the angels prostrated themselves, all of them: Except Iblis (Satan) he was proud and was one of the disbelievers. (Sura 38:71-74)
In Sura 7 :
Quote:
“And surely, We created you (your father Adam) and then gave you shape (the noble shape of a human being), then We told the angels, "Prostrate to Adam", and they prostrated, except Iblis (Satan), he refused to be of those who prostrate. (Allah) said: "What prevented you (O Iblis) that you did not prostrate, when I commanded you?" Iblis said: "I am better than him (Adam), You created me from fire, and him You created from clay." (Sura 7:11-12)
In Sura 18 :
Quote:
“And (remember) when We said to the angels; "Prostrate to Adam." So they prostrated except Iblis (Satan). He was one of the jinns; he disobeyed the Command of his Lord.... (Sura 18:50)
The point in repeating this doctrine from so many different ancient sources and versions is to show that this specific controversy and it’s relation to the doctrine of the “Origin” of Satan, is VERY ancient, the doctrine is VERY widespread among a large group of ancient literature, and the doctrine is VERY “orthodox” to the ancient Christians and other religious groups as well.
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F) THE HONOR DUE ADAM WAS PERFECTLY LOGICAL IN VIEW OF GOD’S PLAN
It was perfectly clear in the early Judao-Christian literature that as milestones were reached in the moving forward of God’s Plan for the spirits of mankind, the inauguration of mortality was an incredibly important phase that all spirits had long been anticipating. Thus, the “honoring of Adam” was not simply an arbitrary and spontaneous “office party” thrown at a whim, but it was a recognition of the culmination of organization and creation over a great deal of time and the inauguration of
the opening phase of mortality of all mankind..
It is Baruch that reminds us of the innate ability of the spirit of men to advance in knowledge consistent with God’s plan. He says :
Quote:
“For the nature of men is always changeable. For as we were once, we are no longer, and as we are now, we shall not remain in the future. For if an end of all things had not been prepared, their beginning would have been senseless”. (2 Baruch 21:16-17) Even at this early, less sophisticated stage of existence, spirits were able to exercise their agency. Thus the spirits of men were able to exercise choice to take part in this plan despite difficulties they will experience in mortality (as Job was reminded), just as they are allowed moral choice in this life.
Given the grandeur and the pure intent and profound implications of God’s plan for mankind, it was clear that it was a profound even for Lucifer to refuse, not only to take part in God the Fathers plan, but to openly rebel against the plan; to influence others to rebel against the plan; and to and ultimately rebel against God the Father himself.
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G) THE NATURE OF LUCIFER’S REBELLION IN THE CONTEXT OF GOD THE FATHER’S PLAN.
The nature of Lucifer’s punishment indicates the seriousness of what he did : When Enoch tells the fallen angel Azaz’el that “There will not be peace unto you; a grave judgment has come upon you. They will put you in bonds because you have taught injustice (1st Enoch 13:1-3), Enoch is not speaking of mere “naughtiness” or mere “disagreement” with God’s plan. Such fallen angels were told “judgment is passed upon you. 5 From now on you will not be able to ascend into heaven unto all eternity, (1st Enoch 14:3-5) because their rebellion had much greater ramifications than simple disagreement with God.
It is in this larger set of contexts that it was said :
Quote:
“And the Rebel meditating these things Fol. 5b, col. 2 would not render obedience to God, and of his own free will he asserted his independence and separated himself from God. But he was - swept away out of heaven and fell, and the fall of himself and of all his company from heaven took place ...because he turned aside from the right way, ... he lost the apparel of his glory. And behold, from that time until the present day, he and all his hosts have been stripped of their apparel, (Cave of Treasures, chapt on “The Revolt of Satan”)
It’s unnecessary to the purpose of this post to discussed the symbolism of Lucifer’s apparel, his armor, and the “names” which were written in his hand (as the christian Abbaton also describes in greater detail), but it’s apparent that Lucifer unwillingly undergoes a ritual removal of his powers and authorities and authority for leadership and, with those angels who took part in his planned rebellion, he is cast down into the earth. However, such histories lend sense and context and confirmation to other histories such as Apocalypse of abraham when Azaz’el is told regarding Abraham “...shame on you Azazel! For Abraham’s portion is in heaven, and yours is on earth, for you have selected here, (and) become enamored of the dwelling place of your blemish. .... For behold, the garment which in heaven was formerly yours has been set aside for him, and the corruption which was on him has gone over to you.” (The Apocalypse of Abraham 13: 4,5,7-14)
Once Lucifer finds himself and his fallen angels on the earth, his own recognition and understanding and sense of what he had done increased, but this recognition was not associated with remorse nor repentance, but rather with an obstinate resolve and desire and plan for revenge (and other motives) and for continuing his rebellion.
Quote:
“..he fled from heaven; Sotona, because his name was satanail. 5 In this way he became different from the angels. His nature did not change, (but) his thought did, since his consciousness of righteous and sinful things changed. And he became aware of his condemnation and of the sin which he sinned previously. 6 And that is why he thought up the scheme against Adam." (2nd Enoch 31:2-8, 32:1)
I hope that it is clear that the early Christian doctrines and texts DID have a sensible concept of the origin of the Devil and for some of the underlying motives as to why Lucifer continues to battle against God and God's plan for the moral education of those among mankind who are willing and wanting to live by the moral laws which will ultimately allow them to live in happiness and harmony.
Compared to modern Christian and modern Jewish theories (or lack of theories), the ancient Judao-Christian doctrines were, (I think), more coherent and more logical and represented a more accurate view of the Devils origin. Restorationists and historians of the period will be aware of many such ancient doctrines, but most theologians do not have background in early Judao-Christian doctrines surrounding the fall of Lucifer and so the fall (and evil) does not make the same logical sense, nor can it be justified upon the same lines as the ancient Judao-Christians understood it. This was the point I was attempting to make in post #254.
Clear
twvetwseeo
Also richard1969 I think the specific underlying distinction your are trying to make regarding the use of the word "creates" versus "uses" is very accurate and true to early Judao-Christianity. The concept underlying "creation" for the ancient Judao-Christians did not imply creaction "ex-nihilo" (i.e. out of "nothing"), but instead, the ancients were well aware that material things were "created" or "organized" from smaller, more chaotic matter.
I am gonna have to investigate all this...This is a bag full here...lol...
1 a: an offense against religious or moral law b: an action that is or is felt to be highly reprehensible <it's a sin to waste food> c: an often serious shortcoming :fault
2 a: transgression of the law of God b: a vitiated state of human nature in which the self is estranged from God
Do you have a point? Yes God created sin/evil, He created it all as the Bible clearly states.
The point I am trying to make is that there is a difference between ‘evil’ and ‘sin’. The ‘bible’ often draws a distinction between ‘sin’ and ‘evil’. This division is clearly taught in the ‘bible’. We are told in Rom. 5:12 that by one man, Adam, sin entered the world. This was the origin of sin.
The point I am trying to make is that there is a difference between ‘evil’ and ‘sin’. The ‘bible’ often draws a distinction between ‘sin’ and ‘evil’. This division is clearly taught in the ‘bible’. We are told in Rom. 5:12 that by one man, Adam, sin entered the world. This was the origin of sin.
Yes there is a difference between evil and sin, I agree with that. I was never trying to imply they were one in the same. I think you grossly misunderstood my OP from the get go but that's okay, I would like further dialogue with you but I have to go so I'll see you on the other side!
I've already quoted it Finn. Sorry you can't accept it but it's in the OP.
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