Process of Sin, death, judgment, resurrection, life (Torah, crucified, Gospel)

[Meerkat2]

Originally Posted by migol84

Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat2
In Cor 15 we see everyone being made alive in their own order


<< 1 Corinthians 15 >>
New American Standard Bible22For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, 24then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

Tell me when do you think christ's coming is -----a lot happens after after his coming.
1Jn"But we know that the Son of God HAS come and has given us an understanding so that we may know him that is true, and WE ARE IN HIM that is true. Even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and the eternal life."

1Jn 2:28 And now, little children, abide in Him, that when He is revealed we may have confidence, and not be shamed from Him in His coming.
1Jn 2:29 If you know that He is righteous, know that everyone doing righteousness has been generated from Him.

To answer your question, Christ has already come and he is in Us, we are the body of Christ.

"But we have one mediator between God and man, the MAN Jesus Christ."

There is a first coming and a second coming --- I believe that refers to his first and Corinthians refers to the second.

Heb 9:27 and as it is laid up to men once to die, and after this--judgment,
Heb 9:28 so also the Christ, once having been offered to bear the sins of many, a second time, apart from a sin-offering, shall appear, to those waiting for him--to salvation!

1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no one lead you astray; the one practicing righteousness is righteous, even as that One is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 The one practicing sin is of the devil, because the devil sins from the beginning. For this the Son of God was revealed, that He might undo the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Everyone who has been begotten of God does not sin, because His seed abides in him, and he is not able to sin, because he has been born of God.
1Jn 3:10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are revealed: Everyone not practicing righteousness is not of God; also the one not loving his brother.
1Jn 3:11 Because this is the message which you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another,
1Jn 3:12 not as Cain was of the evil one, and killed his brother. And for what did he kill him? Because his works were evil, but the things of his brother were righteous.
1Jn 3:13 Do not marvel, my brothers, if the world hates you.
1Jn 3:14 We know that we have passed from death to life because we love the brothers. The one not loving the brother remains in death.
1Jn 3:15 Everyone hating the brother is a murderer, and you know that every murderer does not have everlasting life abiding in him.
1Jn 3:16 By this we have known the love of God, because that One laid down His life for us; and on behalf of the brothers we ought to lay down our lives.
1Jn 3:17 Whoever has the means of life of the world, and sees his brother having need, and shuts up his heart of compassion from him, how does the love of God abide in him?
1Jn 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, or in tongue, but in deed and in truth.
1Jn 3:19 And in this we shall know that we are of the truth, and shall persuade our hearts before Him,
1Jn 3:20 that if our heart accuses us, we know that God is greater than our heart and knows all things.

1Co 3:11 for other foundation no one is able to lay except that which is laid, which is Jesus the Christ;
1Co 3:12 and if any one doth build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw--
1Co 3:13 of each the work shall become manifest, for the day shall declare it , because in fire it is revealed, and the work of each, what kind it is, the fire shall prove;
1Co 3:14 if of any one the work doth remain that he built on it , a wage he shall receive;
1Co 3:15 if of any the work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; and himself shall be saved, but so as through fire.

The passage you read, you are misinterpreting it as every single person alive when that is not so. He is specifically telling us who is the ALL that will be subjected under Him, or rather US, the Church.

God's ultimate plan is to make the PERFECT man. This is what this passage is referring to. When our Lord came, he became the firstborn from the dead as Paul puts it in Colossians. And then in Hebrews this is what the writer tells us that after being the firstborn this is what he did... "In bringing many sons and daughters to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through what he suffered. 11 Both the one who makes people holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters.[g] 12 He says,

“I will declare your name to my brothers and sisters;
IN THE ASSEMBLY I will sing your praises.”

Who are the one's given to Him? If you read John 17 there is a definite and clear distinction between the people who were given to him and the people who were not. Let's read it!
The first part is in reference to those who have already been given to Him.

6 “I have revealed you[a] to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. 7 Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. 8 For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. 9 I pray for them. I AM NOT PRAYING FOR THE WORLD, BUT FOR THOSE YOU HAVE GIVEN ME, for they are yours. 10 All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. 11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of[b] your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one. 12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by[c] that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled. I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. 14 I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. 15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17 Sanctify them by[d] the truth; your word is truth. 18 As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19 For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.

Now the second part is for a different people, for those that do not yet believe. In order for them to believe, who must they believe?

20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

Notice that he says, "through their message." And then he says why he wants the rest of the world to believe "through their message".... so that "all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you." And again, he redirects to those who've already believed, "May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

I mean, come one... I'm reading this and getting the chilly willys. Aren't you? Do you not see the power of this word? For the world to come to know Christ, they have to come to US, to those who have already believed. Hence, the Scripture that I have already provided at the beginning of this long post. "But we know that the Son of God has come and has given US an UNDERSTANDING." Who has the understanding? US! Who is US??? The Church! Read further, "so that we may know Him that is True. AND WE are IN HIM that is true, even IN HIS SON JESUS CHRIST. THIS IS THE TRUE GOD AND THE ETERNAL LIFE." Who is the eternal God and the eternal life? You and I!!!!!!!!! Ain't that good news my friend?

So now.... what about the rest of the world? Well, the rest of the world has to believe in our Word just as the Lord said it. This has to be done and that is why Paul says of this very truth that we believe in.... "I have become its servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness— 26 the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed TO THE LORD'S PEOPLE. 27 To them (not the world, but to the Lord's people, the one's who have believed) God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
28 He is the one we proclaim, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone fully mature in Christ.

How then can one become fully mature long after being dead? When you quote me 1 Cor 15 it is reassuring this very thing that I am telling you, that God has established the Son, which is again the body of Christ (or you and I, who have believed) and has given it an authority so that when it has become fully mature he then will subject everything under him. He will subject all authority, dominion and power under His Son, which is that perfect man I keep yappin about, Jesus Christ, the head of the body, the Church, US. As the Lord said, "so that they may be one in us, as you and I are one." We are that perfect man, the ones who have received and believed in that Word. When one dies, if they did not believe in our word, how then will they come to know God? For certainly they must believe in our Word, because the Lord said it himself. We, the Church, are the mediator between God and man. We are that body of Christ. It's evident that there is a clear purpose for us here on earth. This is why Christ prayed that the world may believe in our Word so that they may be one in us. But it is not saying that the world are already one in us. And it is not implying that they are subject, nor they will be subject.

Joh 5:24 `Verily, verily, I say to you--He who is hearing my word, and is believing Him who sent me, hath life age-during, and to judgment he doth not come, but hath passed out of the death to the life.
Joh 5:25 `Verily, verily, I say to you--There cometh an hour, and it now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and those having heard shall live;
Joh 5:26 for, as the Father hath life in himself, so He gave also to the Son to have life in himself,
Joh 5:27 and authority He gave him also to do judgment, because he is Son of Man.
Joh 5:28 `Wonder not at this, because there doth come an hour in which all those in the tombs shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 and they shall come forth; those who did the good things to a rising again of life, and those who practised the evil things to a rising again of judgment.

Not at all. Keep in mind, that we are the Son, we are that mediator. And God's plan is to subject everything under that mediator. That is what Paul is referring to in 1 Cor. 15.... they have to come through Christ. Plain and simple. No ifs ands or buts. The all part simply means that it is not limited to nobody. And if they die without knowing Christ, they will no longer meet him.... because we are Christ. This is the true God and the eternal life. Do you understand where I'm getting at?

Migol,


I haven't time to write much at the mo - will continue tomorrow if you like......

I agree with some/most of what you say, however what I also see is that believing/ faithfulness passes one from death to life (resurrection) and that there is judgment after death (resurrection) John 5:29 what I also see is that resurrection is about being sown in corruption (flesh) raised incorruption (spirit) Ref 1 Cor 15 .... Christ body, the church, is the spirit – all flesh (soul) must die (the second death) In Revelation 20 when it speaks of the dead being judged there is no mention of the being raised prior to the judgment, and in corinthians it says that death comes before resurrection,

1Co 15:35 But some one will say, `How do the dead rise?
1Co 15:36 unwise! thou--what thou dost sow is not quickened except it may die;


Also I have used literal version... sorry if its hard to read

[Ilene Wright]

Originally Posted by meerkat2

Migol,


I haven't time to write much at the mo - will continue tomorrow if you like......

I agree with some/most of what you say, however what I also see is that believing/ faithfulness passes one from death to life (resurrection) and that there is judgment after death (resurrection) John 5:29 what I also see is that resurrection is about being sown in corruption (flesh) raised incorruption (spirit) Ref 1 Cor 15 .... Christ body, the church, is the spirit – all flesh (soul) must die (the second death) In Revelation 20 when it speaks of the dead being judged there is no mention of the being raised prior to the judgment, and in corinthians it says that death comes before resurrection,

1Co 15:35 But some one will say, `How do the dead rise?
1Co 15:36 unwise! thou--what thou dost sow is not quickened except it may die;


Also I have used literal version... sorry if its hard to read

Great post Meerkat, I didn't quote all of it because I don't want to make your first post that long but I did want to address what you said to Migol here. This is something that Migol kept saying and I didn't have a chance to really think through it, which you have done very nicely, thank you.

What say you Migol?

[migol84]

meerkat, walk me through. What is it you are trying to say with these scriptures?

Also, about the passage in 1 Cor 3:15 which you've highlighted, I don't know exactly what it is you're implying. It looks to me as if you are speaking about the unbelievers who will be taken through punishment as though through fire.

Reading the entire passage you provided in 1 Cor 3, Paul is talking about a division amongst the Church of Corinthians. They were kind of in the same situation that many denominations find themselves in. Paul is reaffirming their faith that just as he planted and Apollos watered it God made it grow.

Then in the passage which you provide Paul warns the Corinthians that the foundation that by the grace of God has been given to him to build it with care. Then he gives the example of the builder and how this foundation will be tested as though through fire. Yes, the builder will be saved but as though he would be escaping through the flames. I think Paul was just trying to warn the Corinthians about the types of teachings they spread. These are my interpretations anyway.

But as I've said, walk me through here and tell me what you are trying to tell me with these Scriptures before I can make any comments on anything. Because right now, I'm reading the scriptures and I'm thinking, "amen!"

[Meerkat2]

Migol, I will start by just asking you a couple of questions.

What do you believe afterlife judgment is for, does it have a purpose? ......
How does it relate to psalms

Psa 107:1 O give thanks unto the LORD, for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever.
Psa 107:2 Let the redeemed of the LORD say so, whom he hath redeemed from the hand of the enemy;
Psa 107:3 And gathered them out of the lands, from the east, and from the west, from the north, and from the south.

Psa 107:6 Then they cried unto the LORD in their trouble, and he delivered them out of their distresses.
Psa 107:7 And he led them forth by the right way, that they might go to a city of habitation.

Psa 107:10 Such as sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, being bound in affliction and iron;
Psa 107:11 Because they rebelled against the words of God, and contemned the counsel of the most High:
Psa 107:12 Therefore he brought down their heart with labour; they fell down, and there was none to help.
Psa 107:13 Then they cried unto the LORD in their trouble, and he saved them out of their distresses.
Psa 107:14 He brought them out of darkness and the shadow of death, and brake their bands in sunder.

Psa 107:17 Fools because of their transgression, and because of their iniquities, are afflicted.
Psa 107:18 Their soul abhorreth all manner of meat; and they draw near unto the gates of death.
Psa 107:19 Then they cry unto the LORD in their trouble, and he saveth them out of their distresses.
Psa 107:20 He sent his word, and healed them, and delivered them from their destructions.

What is your understanding of resurrection? -- is there a difference between resurrection for the believer and unbeliever? What is the difference between the believer, and those that have done good, and the non believer and the wicked relating to the resurrection of the good and evil rising in judgment.

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation*.
Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

*(The word translated as damnation in John 5:29 is the same as the one translated as judgment in the next verse - I believe it should be judgment.)


I think where you and I are not understanding each other is that you believe that there is only an opportunity for belief in this life but there is judgment in the afterlife (what I am not sure of is what you believe that judgment is for --- only condemnation??). I believe that there is judgment after death and that judgment has a purpose --- to bring about righteousness through Christ and is related to resurrection .....

belief is for the purpose of regeneration and righteousness - calling sinners to repent and be saved from judgment.

Judgment is for the purpose of repentance, which brings life.

My disagreement with those that believe in ET is on the purpose of the "lake of fire" second death

Those that believe in ET think that resurrection for the unbeliever happens before the "LOF" and judgment is for never ending condemnation..

Whereas I believe the "LOF" which is the second death precedes resurrection.

1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

1Pe 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

[Jerwade]

Originally Posted by meerkat2

Judgment is for the purpose of repentance, which brings life.

[katjonjj]

Originally Posted by meerkat2

Migol, I will start by just asking you a couple of questions.

What do you believe afterlife judgment is for, does it have a purpose? ......
How does it relate to psalms

What is your understanding of resurrection? -- is there a difference between resurrection for the believer and unbeliever? What is the difference between the believer, and those that have done good, and the non believer and the wicked relating to the resurrection of the good and evil rising in judgment.

*(The word translated as damnation in John 5:29 is the same as the one translated as judgment in the next verse - I believe it should be judgment.)

I think where you and I are not understanding each other is that you believe that there is only an opportunity for belief in this life but there is judgment in the afterlife (what I am not sure of is what you believe that judgment is for --- only condemnation??). I believe that there is judgment after death and that judgment has a purpose --- to bring about righteousness through Christ and is related to resurrection .....

belief is for the purpose of regeneration and righteousness - calling sinners to repent and be saved from judgment.

Judgment is for the purpose of repentance, which brings life.

My disagreement with those that believe in ET is on the purpose of the "lake of fire" second death

Those that believe in ET think that resurrection for the unbeliever happens before the "LOF" and judgment is for never ending condemnation..

Whereas I believe the "LOF" which is the second death precedes resurrection.

Very good questions, I have had the same ones...

[Meerkat2]

Originally Posted by Ilene Wright

Great post Meerkat, I didn't quote all of it because I don't want to make your first post that long but I did want to address what you said to Migol here. This is something that Migol kept saying and I didn't have a chance to really think through it, which you have done very nicely, thank you.

What say you Migol?

Originally Posted by katjonjj

Very good questions, I have had the same ones...

Thank you for your comments ......

[sciotamicks]

Originally Posted by meerkat2

What is your understanding of resurrection? -- is there a difference between resurrection for the believer and unbeliever? What is the difference between the believer, and those that have done good, and the non believer and the wicked relating to the resurrection of the good and evil rising in judgment.

Terms like "wicked" "vile" "adulterer" "unbeliever" "adversery" etc were all covenant bound terms for those living in the OC state rejecting the Christ. These terms, all throughout the Biblical panorama, are terms ONLY pertaining to those who are "covenant" bound. When I say "covenant" bound I am speaking solely of those who had the Old Covenant standards to live by...either an ethnic Israelite, or a proselyte who practiced the worship of Yahweh according to the Torah.

The word translated as damnation in John 5:29 is the same as the one translated as judgment in the next verse - I believe it should be judgment.

Because that is precisely what the verse is eluding to See Dan 12:1-3, a judgement on the corporate body of Israel through Christ's redemptive purpose, to save Israel from their sins. Because of their "rejection" of Christ, their standing with God was removed, althought their spiritual fruits and the benfactors of the new kingdom's arrival in Christ's ministry, death and redsurrection, their consummated judgement as a theocratric government on earth ended. The church, established by Christ and His firstfruits, inagurated that very kingdom Matt 21:43 is heralding, we have NOW.

Those that believe in ET think that resurrection for the unbeliever happens before the "LOF" and judgment is for never ending condemnation..

Whereas I believe the "LOF" which is the second death precedes resurrection.

This is where futurist fantasy tends to cloud our thinking. The Lake of Fire is simply a Covenant bound judgement, only dealing with those written in the book of life, BASED on their works, within the Old Covenant standard. If this judgement pertained to those who were and are in Christ, this judgement would be SOLELY based on the faith perspective. This is a very KEY point in deciphering this judgemental attribute. It is by this ID that we can safely interpret this to be an Old Covenant judgement. The ancient world spoke very differently as to how we allegorize literary form, and it is by this means it must be interpreted. The Lake of Fire was INDEED drawn from Gehenna, and Gehenna we know has SERIOUS historical implications as to WHAT it is, and it is by this, that we can safely attribute the Lake of Fire as a HISTORICALLY accurate rendition allegorized in obtuse language. These need to be constantly Biblically interpreted WITHOUT our doctrinal persuppositions imbedded into them, and rightly defined from the SCRIPTURES themselves, apart from our own preconceived ideas. One can have a field day with the Lake of Fire, but without scriptural defense, it is simply an error to be contended with.
I hope that this has served you well, and blessings to you.

[Meerkat2]

Originally Posted by sciotamicks

Terms like "wicked" "vile" "adulterer" "unbeliever" "adversery" etc were all covenant bound terms for those living in the OC state rejecting the Christ. These terms, all throughout the Biblical panorama, are terms ONLY pertaining to those who are "covenant" bound. When I say "covenant" bound I am speaking solely of those who had the Old Covenant standards to live by...either an ethnic Israelite, or a proselyte who practiced the worship of Yahweh according to the Torah.




Because that is precisely what the verse is eluding to See Dan 12:1-3, a judgement on the corporate body of Israel through Christ's redemptive purpose, to save Israel from their sins. Because of their "rejection" of Christ, their standing with God was removed, althought their spiritual fruits and the benfactors of the new kingdom's arrival in Christ's ministry, death and redsurrection, their consummated judgement as a theocratric government on earth ended. The church, established by Christ and His firstfruits, inagurated that very kingdom Matt 21:43 is heralding, we have NOW.



This is where futurist fantasy tends to cloud our thinking. The Lake of Fire is simply a Covenant bound judgement, only dealing with those written in the book of life, BASED on their works, within the Old Covenant standard. If this judgement pertained to those who were and are in Christ, this judgement would be SOLELY based on the faith perspective. This is a very KEY point in deciphering this judgemental attribute. It is by this ID that we can safely interpret this to be an Old Covenant judgement. The ancient world spoke very differently as to how we allegorize literary form, and it is by this means it must be interpreted. The Lake of Fire was INDEED drawn from Gehenna, and Gehenna we know has SERIOUS historical implications as to WHAT it is, and it is by this, that we can safely attribute the Lake of Fire as a HISTORICALLY accurate rendition allegorized in obtuse language. These need to be constantly Biblically interpreted WITHOUT our doctrinal persuppositions imbedded into them, and rightly defined from the SCRIPTURES themselves, apart from our own preconceived ideas. One can have a field day with the Lake of Fire, but without scriptural defense, it is simply an error to be contended with.
I hope that this has served you well, and blessings to you.

Ken,

While I do believe that we can not ignore the physical, we also can not ignore the spiritual.

In your view -: is there individual resurrection? is there consequences for evil deeds? will Hitler be judged? or can someone do evil deeds then die and there is no judgment.

[sciotamicks]

Originally Posted by meerkat2

Ken,

While I do believe that we can not ignore the physical, we also can not ignore the spiritual.

Because they are always inter-related.....

In your view -: is there individual resurrection?

Yes...Paul's baptized with Christ in His death comes to mind right off the bat..Rom 6 I believe....this is applicable then as it is today. We are basically a moot state...hehe...neither dead or alive...but just are...using mankind being "dead" without Chirst is inconsistent, as it was ONLY the Israelites/proselytes who were "dead" to the LAW. Isaiah's covenant with death...etc...so to infer that "death" is applicable to someone apart from the covenant with Christ is irellevant, or be it that, moot. Now...what is "death" defined as? That is the question....are we talking about biological, or spiritual?...obviously the latter...so in terms of "biological" death, we can turn to texts like 1 Thess 4 and read historically accurate themes in which Paul used in verse 16-17...being caught up, and even that has spiritual attributes to it, being caught up from the netherworld. But apart from themes exemplified in 1 Thess 4..."death" mentioned in the scriptures most always if not always relates to "covenant" death....or twice dead/second death....which is permanent "covenant" death and corporate standing as a lightbearer for God, which is what the Israelite theocracy experienced in the 1st century....the Lake of Fire.

Paul expands...that resurrection for those with the law of conscience, that is folks apart from the Law and Christ, die with Christ in His death, and are resurrected unto life with Him. This is ONLY focusing on living, reality, life, and our walk with Him, guiding us, our moves etc. Eternal life.
We are talking realm beyond our comprehension when it comes to "after" life, as this was A focus, but never the primary one.

is there consequences for evil deeds?

A resounding yes.
Especially if you are "walking" with God.

will Hitler be judged?

Beyond my pay grade. This is God's decision. From what I understand of him, He acknowledged Jesus Christ and who He was, that alone begs further examination based on his practices during His power play. There is a cue text for someone like this....never forgiven in the age to come.

or can someone do evil deeds then die and there is no judgment.

Possibly so. This of course is stepping out from the scope of the what the scriprrues are actually teaching. I believe an evil person will experience what is known as the "white light" consciousness fizz. He just dies a biological death and that's it. Maybe I am wrong, maybe mankind, as a corporate body and creation, on behalf of Israel, were giving some "eternal" soul that wanders around the interdimensional universes either amiably lost and searching, or if He walked with Christ, goes somewhere nice