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But now take your income and add a wife and say 2 kids to it. How much would you need? More for food, more for rent, more for medical care, more for clothes, more for school supplies, more, more, more...on the same income.
First; I would then not have a big family. It is not about what you want and then create a debt, it is about what you can afford.
Second: I probably would still be doing what I do now, because I am raised this way and agree that my parents have raised me well.
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As for why people do good things, only God knows your heart, but I for one am grateful that I have the ability to help when I can. If I had to spend more for my family's needs, then there would be less left over to share with those that need it.
To me it is not about money, it is about being responsible for your actions. Not wanting to be ignorant and making decisions in the knowledge where your actions could lead to. And not closing your eyes and hoping for the best or trusting in the fact that God will make everything all right.
I do not have much because I don't need much, the only things I buy daily is food. I only have to pay my rent, internet and taxes. Besides the internet there is not much I can do there.
I let my money (not that I have much, anyway) talk for me by not willingly supporting any corporations or the global economy. I only buy things I really need so I buy as little as possible.
Originally Posted by bigthirstyObviously you have thought about buying the cars. I assume you don't buy them because you want them but because you really need them. (I do not need a car because I do not want one).
And you have shown that you are aware of the possible consequences of your actions (endorsing corporations who do evil).
So I trust that when you have made your decision, you will not lie to yourself afterwards by saying that there was nothing you could have done.
You consciously made a decision and took full responsibility for it, which in my opinion is better than choose to be ignorant.
While people who only pray are not concerned with the affects of their actions. They just sin then ask for forgiveness later, or probably are not aware that they support evil. These people are more obsessed with not sinning or not doing evil, than doing good.
The easiest way not to sin is not being aware that you are sinning or trying to clear the sin by doing good deeds.
I do not believe in being ignorant nor do I believe that I can counterbalance a sin with a good deed. So the actions of people who only pray are more guided by the notion not to sin or absolve their sin instead of their willingness to help others.
There are people who give lotsa money to charity, my question is do they do this because they want to help, or because they want to clear their sins (help themselves)?
I help others because I want to help them, not because I feel guilty about something.
I still don't see how you answered the question..
You said: "I just think that it is our duty as human beings to stop such abuse and exploitation"
Are you talking about the actual purchase as being the abuse and exploitation or are you talking about the manufacturing of the product being abusive and exploitative?
My point is on the one hand you say "use commong sense and buy the cheaper item" then you talk about "stoping such abuse and exploitation".
I'm not busting on you.. I'm just trying to understand your POV.
Also.. I think you have my point of view mistaken. I'm reading that you might think I struggle with my decision to purchase the cheaper car. That is incorrect. I have no problem whatsoever. I knowingly and willingly sell my morals down the tube for the better buy. I totally understand there is a price for my ethics.. what I haven't figured out is what that price is.. (i.e. saving $100 vs saving $5,000).
In theory, I think it can a good thing to shop ethically when possible. However, in reality, sometimes it's not easy. By that I mean that one company may excel ethically in one area and not do so great in others. Sometimes we may have to choose what area is most important to you.
For example, it is very difficult for me personally to knowingly purchase from a company that I know supports organizations which are pro-abortion.
And then if I'm really honest here... don't flame me, but I don't know that spending huge amounts of time concerning myself about it is in the best interest of the kingdom of God.
Most of the items we buy are made in China, a country that is very Pro abortion. It's hard to find items made outside of China, but you should try to if you can.
My point is on the one hand you say "use commong sense and buy the cheaper item" then you talk about "stoping such abuse and exploitation".
I hadn't thought of the fact that one of the cars might have been made in a country were women have no rights, but you have. I trust that you will not deceive yourself when you buy a car from them.
The reason why I do not drive a car and never will is because it pollutes. The fact that I do not fatten the automobile industry is an added bonus for me.
With every decision I make I want to be informed as possible, but I also accept the fact that I, on my own, cannot change the world. Which is why I do not feel the need to pray, because I do not feel guilty.
It is unlike the Christian way of thinking: the Christian way of thinking is that Christians cannot be Nazis so there are no Christian Nazis. While I believe that Nazis can be Christians. Believing that you are a Nazi doesn't mean that you always commit evil. That would be the same as saying that Nazis cannot do good. Some Nazis did good, like Schindler from Schindler's list.
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"Schindler's List" is the based-on-truth story of Nazi Czech business man Oskar Schindler, who uses Jewish labor to start a factory in occupied Poland. As World War II progresses, and the fate of the Jews becomes more and more clear, Schindler's motivations switch from profit to human sympathy and he is able to save over 1100 Jews from death in the gas chambers. Written by Anthony Hughes {husnock31@hotmail.com} Schindler's List (1993) - Plot summary
I guess what I'm saying is that I'm not an absolutist. Every man is good & evil.
Most people only view themselves as predominantly good (like many Christians do) while they also are evil.
I am aware that I try to choose the lesser evil, while most people won't even admit that by not consiously thinking about it.
I just make a decision and am fully responsible for the decision I've made. I make no excuses for it or try to cover it up.
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Also.. I think you have my point of view mistaken. I'm reading that you might think I struggle with my decision to purchase the cheaper car. That is incorrect. I have no problem whatsoever. I knowingly and willingly sell my morals down the tube for the better buy. I totally understand there is a price for my ethics.. what I haven't figured out is what that price is.. (i.e. saving $100 vs saving $5,000).
No I know you do not struggle.
You accept that you have a prize.
Like you, I also do not struggle. I have wrestled with this question since I was 10 or 11, but once I've made up my mind what my best course of action is I have been able to follow it without ever feeling consumed by guilt again.
I never entered the art academy because having to put a prize on my creations is the same to me as selling my soul. I’d rather give a sculpture to someone who really likes my sculpture than sell it to someone who only buys it with the intent to sell it with a huge profit (like an investment). I let every decision be influenced by my conscience.
The prize for people who live in denial or try to be ignorant IS often their conscience.
To those of you who are so involved in shopping ethically, let me ask you...do you buy gas? From oil companies that pollute and rape the environment? Do you drive a car made by auto manufacturers that buy materials from companies that exploit the environment? Do you shop in stores in new (or old) shopping centers that were built on formerly pristine farmland, ranchland, et al? Do you watch television, considering the hypocrisy, hatred and immorality that Hollywood spews? Are you currently using Microsoft software, a company that has been accused of myriad anti-competitive practices?
Does anyone get my point? Get off your soapbox and live your own life. Don't tell me or anyone else how to live (or shop, or think). Each of us can only do the best that we can do. The original question was "can a person be a Christian if you don't shop ethically?" The answer is YES. Christ asks us to accept HIM, not SHOP for him. Yes, we are to be as Christlike as possible. But NOBODY can shop 100% ethically. It's virtually impossible. And no one has the right to tell anyone else how they should shop or what companies they should or shouldn't promote.
In the end, the only thing that matters is Jesus. NOT Wal-Mart, NOT Nordstrom, NOT Microsoft or GM. It's all about Jesus. He expects you to do your best--and everyone else's opinion is useless.
Are you currently using Microsoft software, a company that has been accused of myriad anti-competitive practices?
That is why they try the governments try to prevent monopolies, so you have different options from which to choose. Remember Jesus being violent in the temple? Or do you think that has nothing to do with monopolies?
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Does anyone get my point? Get off your soapbox and live your own life. Don't tell me or anyone else how to live (or shop, or think).
Obviously you are not thinking straight. I am only telling you what I do, what you do is your business.
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The answer is YES. Christ asks us to accept HIM, not SHOP for him. Yes, we are to be as Christlike as possible. But NOBODY can shop 100% ethically.
Obviously you don't read either. I'm not an absolutist, but Christians often only view themselves in absolute terms.
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He expects you to do your best
Doing what?
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and everyone else's opinion is useless.
In that case why should people think? We should stop thinking and follow the bible without having any questions.
Ever.
To those of you who are so involved in shopping ethically, let me ask you...do you buy gas? From oil companies that pollute and rape the environment? Do you drive a car made by auto manufacturers that buy materials from companies that exploit the environment? Do you shop in stores in new (or old) shopping centers that were built on formerly pristine farmland, ranchland, et al? Do you watch television, considering the hypocrisy, hatred and immorality that Hollywood spews? Are you currently using Microsoft software, a company that has been accused of myriad anti-competitive practices?
Does anyone get my point? Get off your soapbox and live your own life. Don't tell me or anyone else how to live (or shop, or think). Each of us can only do the best that we can do. The original question was "can a person be a Christian if you don't shop ethically?" The answer is YES. Christ asks us to accept HIM, not SHOP for him. Yes, we are to be as Christlike as possible. But NOBODY can shop 100% ethically. It's virtually impossible. And no one has the right to tell anyone else how they should shop or what companies they should or shouldn't promote.
In the end, the only thing that matters is Jesus. NOT Wal-Mart, NOT Nordstrom, NOT Microsoft or GM. It's all about Jesus. He expects you to do your best--and everyone else's opinion is useless.
nobody is preaching at you and nobody is telling you how to live your life (although I do find the irony in Christians saying "don't tell me how to live my life"). I bet gays and lesbians find that ironic too..
I fully admit I sacrifice my ethics for a good purchase. But thats just it... I don't hide behind Jesus and say "Well he asks us to accept him not shop for him". Its like saying "I can do whatever I want without having a conscience .. well because thinking about what I did wrong is actually taking time away from me thinking how much I love Jesus..." In my opinion that is lame at best.
So in my opinion..
Yes.. You can be a Christian if you don't shop ethically 100% of the time
However, if the thought never enters your mind about what your are purchasing and where it came from and you just spend because..well you can spend.. then I think its a dangerous hypocritical walk you are taking.
if one can have an extramarital affair and be a Christian, then I suppose one could not be an ethical shopper and be a Christian. I know Christians that do many worse things. Maybe they're not Christians, but they consider themselves Christians and attend church regularly. Interesting question.
It's a dangerous hypocritical walk I'm taking if the thought never enters my mind about what I'm purchasing or where it came from? I have no idea what you're talking about.
If I buy a Tootsie Roll, should I stop and consider? Or is it just for a pair of sandals purchased at Wal-Mart?
The fact of the matter is that this entire topic can be taken to ludicrous lengths. I try to live my life in the manner that is most pleasing to Christ. He doesn't expect me to question everything I buy or research every store in my community. I don't believe he has a litmus test for my shopping patterns. I also think that getting carried away on a subject like this is tantamount to arguing over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
Thank God I have no guilt in me over my purchasing patterns. As I said before, the question is "Can you be a Christian if you don't shop ethically?" And I still say "yes" because it's impossible to shop ethically and no one can do it. And by whose standard shall we define "ethically"? Someone please answer whose standard.
The fact of the matter is that this entire topic can be taken to ludicrous lengths. I try to live my life in the manner that is most pleasing to Christ. He doesn't expect me to question everything I buy or research every store in my community.
Hitler like God only asked one thing, obey without question.
Because of WWII many Germans now know to always question authority (and themselves).
Not questioning authority could lead to the same excuse they had for Hitler’s -Endlosung- (=the Final Solution to the Jewish ‘problem’): Ich habe ess nicht gewusst (I did not know).
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Thank God I have no guilt in me over my purchasing patterns.
Jesus would probably disagree with you, since he already made such a fuss over monopoly in the temple.
But hey, whatever floats your boat or makes you happy, right? Hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil; ignorance truly must be bliss.
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First; I would then not have a big family. It is not about what you want and then create a debt, it is about what you can afford.
And not closing your eyes and hoping for the best or trusting in the fact that God will make everything all right.
in others. Sometimes we may have to choose what area is most important to you.
don't flame me, but I don't know that spending huge amounts of time concerning myself about it is in the best interest of the kingdom of God.
I hadn't thought of the fact that one of the cars might have been made in a country were women have no rights, but you have. I trust that you will not deceive yourself when you buy a car from them. 
I am only telling you what I do, what you do is your business.
Doing what?
