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I wanted to state my opinion on the Major difference between those who believe in ET and those who believe in UR. the first one is the translation of the word " Aion" some bibles translate it as eternal some translate it as age-during. Those who believe in ET say it is eternal and those who follow UR believe it means age-during, so either eternal torment or age-during chastisement. This debate will go on because it is a translation debate. I want to talk about the other, "free will."
First we need to define our terms. I think we all pretty much agree on what will is, it is our choice to choose what we want the most. The heart will always choose what it wants the most. Some time people will say that they made a choice they really did not want to make but that is not true. Oh they may have preferred that things were different so they had other choices to make but never doubt that they choose what their heart wanted the most deep down.
So the word we need to define now is the word "free" what does that mean. I have heard many people say that God gave man free will. Where in the bible does it say that? No one can show me a verse that says it, they say that it is implied. I disagree. One of the verses many people will point to is "
Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD. "
That shows that we have a choice to make and that is true. Every choice we make is our choice, but is it a "free" choice?
If by free you mean it is ours to make then we have free will according to that definition of "free". But if you mean without influence on our choices then we do not have "free" will, because every choice we make is influence by many factors.
The best definition I have ever heard of God's Grace was "divine influence on the heart." many people think that God's grace is just forgiveness of sin and that is part of it but there is much more to his Grace. If you forgave a thief for stealing but did nothing else and he kept stealing and you kept forgiving him he learns nothing except that it is ok to keep stealing, in fact he believes he has a right to steal. But if you forgive him but chastise him so he has a change of heart and no longer chooses to steal then you have influenced his heart and he chooses to quit stealing. was that "free will" or not.
That is how God shapes our will to his will by influencing our heart till we are in tune with Gods heart. Then we choose to follow God way because our hearts are in tune.
God is always in control. Many people say that but they don't really believe it. They think God set up the world and then lets events unfold as they will and we are in control of the aspects of our life that relate to what we choose to do. Remember that the clay( that's us) never leaves the Potter's (that's God) hands. He is always shaping us, some time is major ways but most time in small hardly noticed ways.
The bible tells us that God knows when a bird fall, and how many hairs are on our head. Why are these things in the bible? Because it shows that God knows everything because He is in controls every detail, even the hairs on out head. He saw the end before the beginning. That is how He knows what will happen because He set it up to happen that way before he even created the world. His plan is working out exactly as He designed it to be.
I did not come to this realization over night or easily. I too thought I had free will because it felt like I did, and I wanted to have free will so that I would be in charge of my fate. It was an " idol of my heart", it was my choice to choose what I believed or what I did. My heart believed that but my mind knew God had control so how do the two thing reconcile themselves to each other? I read peoples opinions and prayed about it and one day God opened my eyes and I finally understood. Everything is my choice to make and it always was and always will be ,but God influences my heart so that my choices will change until I am in tune with God and then his will, will be my will. (I am still under construction.) He knows exactly how to do this, in fact He has already seen what He will do and how I will respond because he has seen the end( and all points in between) before the world was created.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
When I put myself on the throne of my heart (the temple of God) and say that I am in control I exalt myself above God and I become the man of sin, the son of perdition.
They are my choices but "Thank God" they are not free from God's divine influences on my heart.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
When I put myself on the throne of my heart (the temple of God) and say that I am in control I exalt myself above God and I become the man of sin, the son of perdition.
They are my choices but "Thank God" they are not free from God's divine influences on my heart.
The anti-Christ is revealed in the time of great tribulation, the crisis point in which the Holy Spirit exposes the man of sin within.
This is indeed one of the major differences in us and ET believers. I realized a long time ago what free will really was, and it freed me from trying to be the captain of something that does not even belong to me, ME!
After a while, life will prove to us over, over and over again that we are not in control of anything at all.
Free will is in the pursuit of doing the will of the Father. Each person must find their own path to the Father and each person has the right to search for the point in which our will and God's will meet in the middle. Kind of like a bridge that connects the two. We are free to choose the path that is right for us as individuals.
The issue is this, and the question I ask of all who deny man's ability to choose is: Since when has it been an act of love to impose your will upon another, even for their good?
I view this doctrine as one of the most dangerous of all heresies. For it is only a short step to using the verse
Rom 8:29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son,
in order to claim the right to force your will upon others. "I am doing this to you because God did it to me and what's good for me is good for you" type thinking.
Joh 16:2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.
Read again Rev 13: 15-17.And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Here we have the dreadful end-time scenario of forced worship upon mankind and the inevitable persecution. A repeat of the mindless persecutions of the dark ages only on a global scale.
"Of all tyrannies a tyrany sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some time be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their conscience." (C.S.Lewis)
I believe this doctrine makes God to be a tyrant. Again, love can not force or coerce in any way.
Last edited by june 7th; 07-01-2011 at 06:51 AM..
Reason: Please refrain from using 'red' in posts as it is reserved for mod cuts and other moderator actions. Any other color is fine
The issue is this, and the question I ask of all who deny man's ability to choose is: Since when has it been an act of love to impose your will upon another, even for their good?
I view this doctrine as one of the most dangerous of all heresies. For it is only a short step to using the verse
Rom 8:29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son,
in order to claim the right to force your will upon others. "I am doing this to you because God did it to me and what's good for me is good for you" type thinking.
Joh 16:2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.
Read again Rev 13: 15-17.And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Here we have the dreadful end-time scenario of forced worship upon mankind and the inevitable persecution. A repeat of the mindless persecutions of the dark ages only on a global scale.
"Of all tyrannies a tyrany sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some time be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their conscience." (C.S.Lewis)
I believe this doctrine makes God to be a tyrant. Again, love can not force or coerce in any way.
Hey brakelite. how ya doing?
Do you not impose your will on your child when he is learning how to operate in the world? Do you not love them? As a parent we have a responsibility to care for and teach our children. Is not God our Father and therefore responsible to teach us and guide us. As I said God does not force you to change your heart but the judgements and circumstance he uses make it inevitable that you will change, but it is still your choice even if it is the only one you can make. This was a hard concept for me to come to grips with too. It did not happen overnight, I wrestled with it for a while.
As for someone using this concept to impose their will on another, well if someone is of that mind they will always find a way to justify it. Does not even have to make sense. Like your example, the best rejoinder is to say to them. "well your not God."
Last edited by june 7th; 07-01-2011 at 06:53 AM..
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