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There is so much made of one little word in the bible. Never mind that the wrong ideas about this word fly into the face of hundreds of clearly laid out concepts. This word is ALL and the way it's understood is just such a stretch.
WE are ALL going to the game. No, not everyone on earth just me and my friends.
Yes, we All got one. They were giving out free pens in the office.
It's the height of ignorance to build an entire Theology on the misunderstanding of one little word.
God wants ALL people to be saved. All His own people chosen by Him and in that His desire will be fullfilled.
Lucknow, this is what the scriptures teach ...
"It is a trustworthy statement deserving full acceptance. For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers."
And instead of teaching what we were commanded to teach, which is what is written above, you teach another gospel, you teach ...
It is a trustworthy statement deserving full acceptance. For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is NOT the Savior of all men, BUT ONLY of believers.
You might just as well write a new bible, because you refuse to accept the one we have at face value.
Just like how the scriptures teach ...
First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for ALL PEOPLE, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires ALL PEOPLE to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the mana Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for ALL, which is the testimony given at the proper time.
While you teach ...
First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for A FEW people, for SOME kings and SOME who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires A FEW PEOPLE to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the mana Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for A FEW, which is the testimony given at the proper time.
See, if "all people" really only means "a few people", then Paul is urging us to only pray for "a few people" as well, and not for "all people". Look at Galatians 6:10 and use your same form of twisting the scriptures to make them suit your false teachings.
Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.
What the scripture would say if they were twisted according to your false tradition ...
Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to A FEW PEOPLE, ONLY to those who belong to the family of believers.
Just like above, if all people only means a few people, then we are commanded to do goon only to a few people ... The verse above is the exact same sentence structure as 2 Tim 2:4, if you interpret 2 Tim 4:10 that way, then you have to interpret Galatians 6:10 the exact same way. And of course this all proves that you preach a different Gospel than Paul and Christ and the apostles. You don't teach any sort of gospel at all, as the gospel is good news for all people, while what you teach is THE WORST news POSSIBLE for the vast majority of all people.
White washed tombstones, filled with violence and death ...
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 07-06-2011 at 09:52 AM..
I'm not a Calvinist at all. I derive my beliefs from studying the bible. Everthing in my post was from those refrences I gave. If you had to give a name to the Theology I believe you would have to call it the Pauline doctorines of grace. You give John Calvin too much credit. I'm a biblical Christian. I don't believe what the bible does not teach and for sure I have to believe what it does teach about our great salvation and our Great God. If things about God and His plans are contrary to my puny human understanding I will not make something up to satisfy myself. That's the way things are today. People are offended by the truth of the things of God so they exchange the truth for a lie. Any true Christian should not be surprised in the least because the bible tells us that that will happen.
Just always remember this that the bible tells us that, The things of God are an offence to the natural man. The gospel it's self is very offensive to the unregenerate heart. So what is done is this, The truth is changed so that sinful man can "ACCEPT" it. A strange God is invented by those who do not know the true God Almighty.
A lot of people who subscribe to the type of theology represented by what has been called "Calvinism" are not happy with the term, as it suggests that it originated with Calvin.
But we know that if Calvin held to that type of doctrine he did so because it is what the Scriptures teach. Even so, other believers in God's absolute sovereignty in salvation just let it go and still acknowledge the term "Calvinist" (though the term should probably not be used....some just say they believe the doctrines of grace, or "reformed" theology). Just the term "Calvinism", I believe, has evoked more rage and discontent than the doctrines it represents
"It is a trustworthy statement deserving full acceptance. For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers."
And instead of teaching what we were commanded to teach, which is what is written above, you teach another gospel, you teach ...
It is a trustworthy statement deserving full acceptance. For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is NOT the Savior of all men, BUT ONLY of believers.
You might just as well write a new bible, because you refuse to accept the one we have at face value.
Just like how the scriptures teach ...
First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for ALL PEOPLE, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires ALL PEOPLE to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the mana Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for ALL, which is the testimony given at the proper time.
While you teach ...
First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for A FEW people, for SOME kings and SOME who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires A FEW PEOPLE to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the mana Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for A FEW, which is the testimony given at the proper time.
See, if "all people" really only means "a few people", then Paul is urging us to only pray for "a few people" as well, and not for "all people". Look at Galatians 6:10 and use your same form of twisting the scriptures to make them suit your false teachings.
Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.
What the scripture would say if they were twisted according to your false tradition ...
Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to A FEW PEOPLE, ONLY to those who belong to the family of believers.
Just like above, if all people only means a few people, then we are commanded to do goon only to a few people ... The verse above is the exact same sentence structure as 2 Tim 2:4, if you interpret 2 Tim 4:10 that way, then you have to interpret Galatians 6:10 the exact same way. And of course this all proves that you preach a different Gospel than Paul and Christ and the apostles. You don't teach any sort of gospel at all, as the gospel is good news for all people, while what you teach is THE WORST news POSSIBLE for the vast majority of all people.
White washed tombstones, filled with violence and death ...
Preach it brother!!! The Gospel is Good News . . . not the Bad News presented by the mainstream Fundies. (can't rep you)
"It is a trustworthy statement deserving full acceptance. For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers."
And instead of teaching what we were commanded to teach, which is what is written above, you teach another gospel, you teach ...
It is a trustworthy statement deserving full acceptance. For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is NOT the Savior of all men, BUT ONLY of believers.
You might just as well write a new bible, because you refuse to accept the one we have at face value.
Just like how the scriptures teach ...
First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for ALL PEOPLE, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires ALL PEOPLE to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the mana Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for ALL, which is the testimony given at the proper time.
While you teach ...
First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for A FEW people, for SOME kings and SOME who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires A FEW PEOPLE to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the mana Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for A FEW, which is the testimony given at the proper time.
See, if "all people" really only means "a few people", then Paul is urging us to only pray for "a few people" as well, and not for "all people". Look at Galatians 6:10 and use your same form of twisting the scriptures to make them suit your false teachings.
Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.
What the scripture would say if they were twisted according to your false tradition ...
Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to A FEW PEOPLE, ONLY to those who belong to the family of believers.
Just like above, if all people only means a few people, then we are commanded to do goon only to a few people ... The verse above is the exact same sentence structure as 2 Tim 2:4, if you interpret 2 Tim 4:10 that way, then you have to interpret Galatians 6:10 the exact same way. And of course this all proves that you preach a different Gospel than Paul and Christ and the apostles. You don't teach any sort of gospel at all, as the gospel is good news for all people, while what you teach is THE WORST news POSSIBLE for the vast majority of all people.
White washed tombstones, filled with violence and death ...
I appreciate your postion that we cannot ignore verses that are plainly taught in Scripture. But in facing this question of whether all will be saved, we have other Scriptures that cannot be ignored, as well.
There is a considerable amount of information in the Bible that speaks of those will not come to Christ...those who will not "hear" His voice.
Right away in John 10, we have some very precise Scripture that speaks of this. We read in John 10:26-28:
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shallany man pluck them out of my hand.
KJV
In a similar verse we read:
John 8:47 47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
KJV.
Interestingly enough, just a few verses earlier in the same chapter, He also states:
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
KJV
The Bible makes it quite clear that there will be those who do not respond to the Gospel call. The very essence of the Gospel involves hearing how we stand guilty before God, and cannot be redeemed outside of the saving work of Christ on our behalf.
As God gives us "ears to hear" we come to understand our need of this salvation, and cry out to God for mercy. Jesus promises that He will not cast out any who come to Him.
The problem, therefore, is that any reference to the word "all" or "every" man in connection with God's saving work must be conditioned by the context. Only those who confess Christ as Savior will be saved. This is the prominent message of all of Scripture. The Old Testament types and figures pointed to Christ as the ultimate fulfillment of these things. He would be that "once for all" sacrifice that would obtain eternal redemption for those who would come to Him.
There is a lot more that can be said; but I will end it here and continue again, as it is a worthwhile and important discussion. But we shouldn't think that all who have died, even those who have been known to have done great wickedness without having finally professed a saving belief in Christ, are somehow going to be saved outside of Christ's atoning work on their behalf. And one's own redemption is generally seen in his/her response to the Gospel, and ultimately one's faith in Christ, alone, to save him.
I appreciate your postion that we cannot ignore verses that are plainly taught in Scripture. But in facing this question of whether all will be saved, we have other Scriptures that cannot be ignored, as well.
There is a considerable amount of information in the Bible that speaks of those will not come to Christ...those who will not "hear" His voice.
The Bible makes it quite clear that there will be those who do not respond to the Gospel call. The very essence of the Gospel involves hearing how we stand guilty before God, and cannot be redeemed outside of the saving work of Christ on our behalf.
The problem, therefore, is that any reference to the word "all" or "every" man in connection with God's saving work must be conditioned by the context. Only those who confess Christ as Savior will be saved. This is the prominent message of all of Scripture. The Old Testament types and figures pointed to Christ as the ultimate fulfillment of these things. He would be that "once for all" sacrifice that would obtain eternal redemption for those who would come to Him.
There is a lot more that can be said; but I will end it here and continue again, as it is a worthwhile and important discussion. But we shouldn't think that all who have died, even those who have been known to have done great wickedness without having finally professed a saving belief in Christ, are somehow going to be saved outside of Christ's atoning work on their behalf. And one's own redemption is generally seen in his/her response to the Gospel, and ultimately one's faith in Christ, alone, to save him.
I wonder why you apply 1st century writings about what Christ said in the 1st century to 1st century people to all people in all times. The context of all the words Jesus spoke is the 1st century... After all he did SPEAK them to actual people who weren't listening. All those are dead now.
I appreciate your postion that we cannot ignore verses that are plainly taught in Scripture. But in facing this question of whether all will be saved, we have other Scriptures that cannot be ignored, as well.
There is a considerable amount of information in the Bible that speaks of those will not come to Christ...those who will not "hear" His voice.
Right away in John 10, we have some very precise Scripture that speaks of this. We read in John 10:26-28:
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shallany man pluck them out of my hand.
KJV
In a similar verse we read:
John 8:47 47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
KJV.
Interestingly enough, just a few verses earlier in the same chapter, He also states:
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
KJV
The Bible makes it quite clear that there will be those who do not respond to the Gospel call. The very essence of the Gospel involves hearing how we stand guilty before God, and cannot be redeemed outside of the saving work of Christ on our behalf.
As God gives us "ears to hear" we come to understand our need of this salvation, and cry out to God for mercy. Jesus promises that He will not cast out any who come to Him.
The problem, therefore, is that any reference to the word "all" or "every" man in connection with God's saving work must be conditioned by the context. Only those who confess Christ as Savior will be saved. This is the prominent message of all of Scripture. The Old Testament types and figures pointed to Christ as the ultimate fulfillment of these things. He would be that "once for all" sacrifice that would obtain eternal redemption for those who would come to Him.
There is a lot more that can be said; but I will end it here and continue again, as it is a worthwhile and important discussion. But we shouldn't think that all who have died, even those who have been known to have done great wickedness without having finally professed a saving belief in Christ, are somehow going to be saved outside of Christ's atoning work on their behalf. And one's own redemption is generally seen in his/her response to the Gospel, and ultimately one's faith in Christ, alone, to save him.
JAA2310, I don't think anyone is denying two sets of people (those who respond right now, those who don't respond right now). Yet where does any of the above say one set of people is tormented forever? (Yes I am aware of the so-called "hell" verses - there is an entire thread on that explaining the misinterpretations and mistranslations of it).
Also you are assuming those who don't respond will never respond. Isaiah speaks of a time when those who are not "my people" will be "my people". Paul notes in Corinthians when ultimately God will be "all in all". The Psalms speak of "all people" turning back to God.
Isaiah 19:25 The LORD Almighty will bless them, saying, “Blessed be Egypt my people, Assyria my handiwork, and Israel my inheritance.”
Egypt was God's enemy, yet there will come a time when Egypt is counted as God's people.
Psalm 22:27 All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the LORD,
and all the families of the nations
will bow down before him,
1 Cor 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
So to me it is clear that while YES, not everyone follows God right now, there will come a time when everyone does return to God, even those who have died not knowing Him. All will be made alive in Christ, and all will be made righteous, through Christ.
1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
Romans 5:18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
I appreciate your postion that we cannot ignore verses that are plainly taught in Scripture. But in facing this question of whether all will be saved, we have other Scriptures that cannot be ignored, as well.
There is a considerable amount of information in the Bible that speaks of those will not come to Christ...those who will not "hear" His voice.
Right away in John 10, we have some very precise Scripture that speaks of this. We read in John 10:26-28:
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shallany man pluck them out of my hand. KJV
In a similar verse we read:
John 8:47 47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. KJV.
Interestingly enough, just a few verses earlier in the same chapter, He also states:
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. KJV
The Bible makes it quite clear that there will be those who do not respond to the Gospel call. The very essence of the Gospel involves hearing how we stand guilty before God, and cannot be redeemed outside of the saving work of Christ on our behalf.
As God gives us "ears to hear" we come to understand our need of this salvation, and cry out to God for mercy. Jesus promises that He will not cast out any who come to Him.
The problem, therefore, is that any reference to the word "all" or "every" man in connection with God's saving work must be conditioned by the context. Only those who confess Christ as Savior will be saved. This is the prominent message of all of Scripture. The Old Testament types and figures pointed to Christ as the ultimate fulfillment of these things. He would be that "once for all" sacrifice that would obtain eternal redemption for those who would come to Him.
There is a lot more that can be said; but I will end it here and continue again, as it is a worthwhile and important discussion. But we shouldn't think that all who have died, even those who have been known to have done great wickedness without having finally professed a saving belief in Christ, are somehow going to be saved outside of Christ's atoning work on their behalf. And one's own redemption is generally seen in his/her response to the Gospel, and ultimately one's faith in Christ, alone, to save him.
True, true.... Good post. The Bible repeats some 200 times that one must believe in order to be saved, but somehow some people do not see, or believe those verses. Their minds have been sealed and the truth cannot penetrate. We can only pray that their ears, eyes and mind will be opened so they can hear the truth and receive salvation.
It amazes me every time when people try build a new religion around one misinterpreted verse. They cling to one verse and demontrate wanton disregard for all others.
People like Finn who cannot understand why the truth of universal salvation is good news like to smear the idea claiming it is based on "one misinterpreted verse". Its ironic because it is actually the doctrine of "eternal hell" that is based on two completely mistranslated words.
Regardless, there are actually hundreds of verses that speak to the salvation of all people.
Gen 12:3 And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed.
Psalm 22:27 All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the LORD,
and all the families of the nations
will bow down before him,
Phil 2
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
Romans 5:18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.
1 Tim 4:10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.
Luke 2:10 And the angel said to them, "Do not be afraid; for behold, I bring you good news of a great joy which shall be for all the people.
Luke 3:6 And all mankind will see God’s salvation.
Eph 1
9 And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ,
10 to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.
11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,
12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.
Colossians 1
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
...
20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
Rev 4:11
Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
Rev 5:13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!”
Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Isaiah 57:16 I will not accuse forever, nor will I always be angry, for then the spirit of man would grow faint before me— the breath of man that I have created.
Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
etc.
Its this whole idea of order out of chaos. Its the process of creation. We are in chaos, we are disobedient, but God will bring us all through this into order. For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
People like Finn who cannot understand why the truth of universal salvation is good news like to smear the idea claiming it is based on "one misinterpreted verse". Its ironic because it is actually the doctrine of "eternal hell" that is based on two completely mistranslated words.
Withot fail the universalist mind always reverts from the topic of God's love and salvation through faith, to the topic of hell. I didn't say anything about hell, I said that the necessity of faith for salvation is repeated 200 times.
I could come up with all kinds of new religions that sound real good, and I could cherry pick some Bible verses out of context to support the new religions and then sell them as 'good news', but they would not be good news unless they were true.
Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 07-06-2011 at 01:02 PM..
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