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JAA2310, I don't think anyone is denying two sets of people (those who respond right now, those who don't respond right now). Yet where does any of the above say one set of people is tormented forever? (Yes I am aware of the so-called "hell" verses - there is an entire thread on that explaining the misinterpretations and mistranslations of it).
Also you are assuming those who don't respond will never respond. Isaiah speaks of a time when those who are not "my people" will be "my people". Paul notes in Corinthians when ultimately God will be "all in all". The Psalms speak of "all people" turning back to God.
Isaiah 19:25 The LORD Almighty will bless them, saying, “Blessed be Egypt my people, Assyria my handiwork, and Israel my inheritance.”
Egypt was God's enemy, yet there will come a time when Egypt is counted as God's people.
Psalm 22:27 All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD, and all the families of the nations will bow down before him,
1 Cor 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
So to me it is clear that while YES, not everyone follows God right now, there will come a time when everyone does return to God, even those who have died not knowing Him. All will be made alive in Christ, and all will be made righteous, through Christ.
1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
Romans 5:18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. [/quote]
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Actually I am quite in agreement with you in that many who start out as unbelievers (isn't that the case with pretty much all of us?) can and will eventually come to believe on Christ as their only hope, unto salvation. The problem is in believing that everyone will become saved, including those who have died unsaved.
One verse that immediately comes to mind is John 5:29, where we read:
John 5:28-29 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. KJV
Now this is clearly speaking of a future event. And it makes a distinction between two sets of people....only one set that will be raised unto life.
I personally wish that everyone could become saved. The idea of anyone coming under the wrath of God for their sins, particularly if it is for all eternity, is the most horrible thing I could imagine. But I just cannot find support from the Bible that everyone will be saved in the end.
With regard to Isaiah 19:25....could this not simply be referring to the fact that God will save individuals from all walks of life? He did promise that the Gentiles would be included in His plan of salvation, as well. So then this reference to Assyria and Egypt, I feel, is a description of how the Church is the embodiment of that 'mystery' "that the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel" (Eph 3:6)
Consider also Eph 2:11-13, where we read:
11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh--who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands-- 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. NKJV
God has been pleased to send forth the Gospel into the entire world so that people from virtually every nation can become saved. But, sadly, not every single individual will come to faith in Christ.
May God place it upon our hearts to pray that He would yet save many, and grant them eternal life in Christ Jesus.
I'm sorry, but if the teaching that God created most of humanity for sole purpose of torturing them forever doesn't upset you, then i think you have an extreme moral dilemma.
A question for unis: do you want people to be saved while living? If yes, why do you spend all your time preaching that everyone will be saved after they die?
Define 'reaping what we sow'? What does it mean in the worst case? Someone else told me it means 'shaming', but that person was unable to explain what 'shaming' was. It seems to be an important part of ur religion, but no one knows what it is.
Are you saying all people are saved from shaming? Do you know what salvation is?
Salvation means we are not eternally separated from God. Prior to Jesus producing God's consciousness in a HUMAN BRAIN . . NO HUMAN consciousness had any chance of being joined with God after death. Jesus made that possible for us ALL without our having to do anything. BUT . . . we still have to be sanctified (work out our own salvation so to speak) by building on Christ's foundation. That is the part we can fail to do or accept . . . and that has consequences that have nothing to do with our true salvation which Christ already took care of for us. It is THOSE consequences that we will face if we do not repent while alive and have the grace of Christ to help us through "love of God and each other." It is called "pruning" or "refining" in the consuming fire of God that will try what we have built. That is "reaping what we sow."
Salvation means we are not eternally separated from God. Prior to Jesus producing God's consciousness in a HUMAN BRAIN . . NO HUMAN consciousness had any chance of being joined with God after death. Jesus made that possible for us ALL without our having to do anything. BUT . . . we still have to be sanctified (work out our own salvation so to speak) by building on Christ's foundation. That is the part we can fail to do or accept . . . and that has consequences that have nothing to do with our true salvation which Christ already took care of for us. It is THOSE consequences that we will face if we do not repent while alive and have the grace of Christ to help us through "love of God and each other." It is called "pruning" or "refining" in the consuming fire of God that will try what we have built. That is "reaping what we sow."
Unfortunatelly you have misunderstood "try what we have built" part. Paul talks to, and about, believers whose works (built on foundation on Christ) are tried in the fire and rewards given. Unbelievers will face no such test. Instead their sins will be judged at the great white throne jugment seat.
I appreciate your postion that we cannot ignore verses that are plainly taught in Scripture. But in facing this question of whether all will be saved, we have other Scriptures that cannot be ignored, as well.
There is a considerable amount of information in the Bible that speaks of those will not come to Christ...those who will not "hear" His voice.
Right away in John 10, we have some very precise Scripture that speaks of this. We read in John 10:26-28:
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shallany man pluck them out of my hand.
KJV
In a similar verse we read:
John 8:47 47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
KJV.
Interestingly enough, just a few verses earlier in the same chapter, He also states:
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
KJV
All the verses above are from the gospels where Jesus is speaking specifically of the Sadducees and the Pharisees, the very people that claimed to be the elect of God in the times of Christ who believed they were Gods special chosen few while everyone else was doomed to everlasting torture. And he was also speaking to the people of Israel who though many had received him early in his ministry, later turned against him and rejected him and called for his execution.
These are the people whom Christ prays that god should "forgive them because they do not know what they are doing", when he was dying on the cross.
And these are the same people to whom Paul is making reference in Romans 11 when he speaks about how Israel was blinded and by the sovereign will of God made enemies of the gospel, but who were still beloved by God. And in Romans 11 Paul goes to great lengths to remonstrate the believers to whom he was Writing in Rome concerning their own arrogance and pride in their condemnation of Israel, all of whom Paul says will be saved, regardless of their unbelief.
These unbelievers were made enemies of the gospel for the sake of the world, and if their cutting off be the salvation of the world, then how much more their being grafted back in?
But like all fundamentalists, you fail to recognize the audience relevance and context in which Christ is speaking in the gospels. When he says "few there are who are finding the way", he was speaking of those Israelis whom God had blinded so that they would reject Christ and so that he could die for the sin of all people. Those people who faced real world judgment while they were alive when Rome destroyed the temple and exiled the Jews into the diaspora.
And you also infer from the scriptures something that is never even hinted at, much less plainly stated to be true in scripture, and that is the idea that one must repent before they die in order to be saved.
Also when you read Paul's words in 1 Corinthians chapter 2 concerning the fact that the carnal/natural man cannot even perceive much less conceive of the things of the spirit, because they are foolishness to him, it is made perfectly clear that it is only by the power of the quickening of the spirit that the carnal man can be renewed and made alive in the spirit so that he can come to a full knowledge of the truth and repent.
And we are told that faith is a gift, and repentance is a gift, so that no one can glory of their own salvation. So if anyone cannot hear and understand the gospel it is because the spirit has not yet moved in their lives and God is not yet working within them to make them desire and do the things that please him.
The is what the resurrection of the wicked and unbelieving is about, so that they can be judged by Gods refining fire and purified and made to come to a knowledge of the truth and repent and thereafter kneel before Christ and confess him as lord to the glory of the father, so that God can finally become all and in all.
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The Bible makes it quite clear that there will be those who do not respond to the Gospel call. The very essence of the Gospel involves hearing how we stand guilty before God, and cannot be redeemed outside of the saving work of Christ on our behalf.
As God gives us "ears to hear" we come to understand our need of this salvation, and cry out to God for mercy. Jesus promises that He will not cast out any who come to Him.
The problem, therefore, is that any reference to the word "all" or "every" man in connection with God's saving work must be conditioned by the context. Only those who confess Christ as Savior will be saved. This is the prominent message of all of Scripture. The Old Testament types and figures pointed to Christ as the ultimate fulfillment of these things. He would be that "once for all" sacrifice that would obtain eternal redemption for those who would come to Him.
There is a lot more that can be said; but I will end it here and continue again, as it is a worthwhile and important discussion. But we shouldn't think that all who have died, even those who have been known to have done great wickedness without having finally professed a saving belief in Christ, are somehow going to be saved outside of Christ's atoning work on their behalf. And one's own redemption is generally seen in his/her response to the Gospel, and ultimately one's faith in Christ, alone, to save him.
You write in some ways as a reformist/calvanist, but you seem to also reject the idea of irresistible grace by saying that it is our responsibility come to him, as if we are the ones by our own volition who chooses to believe by merit of our own unregenerate carnal natures.
You are in reality contradicting yourself by trying to straddle the fence on the issue of the sovereignty of God.
The way in which the word "all" is used in context to the work of Christ on the cross and in the context of salvation is ABSOLUTELY plain and simply UNIVERSAL. And that is why the church was early on called the catholic church, because it was the church which taught the universal gospel message which is good new for all people. And Christ made it clear when he commanded us to love our enemies. For anyone to say that does not love his enemies and act ultimately out of love toward his enemies is to straight out make Christ an Hypocrite.
No one said anyone would be saved outside of Christs atoning work. Christ died for the sin of the world, and without his atoning work no one could ever come to the father. And one day every person who has ever lived will be judged and will finally come to a knowledge of the truth and be subjected to Christ who will draw all people to himself so that they shall be restored during the restitution of all things and so that God can be all and in all.
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 07-06-2011 at 06:13 PM..
A question for unis: do you want people to be saved while living? If yes, why do you spend all your time preaching that everyone will be saved after they die?
To the first part yes, of course. And we've already explained, time and time and time and time again, about what happens when we die. You just don't listen. It seems really weird for you to be asking these questions when you should already know the answers.
Unfortunatelly you have misunderstood "try what we have built" part. Paul talks to, and about, believers whose works (built on foundation on Christ) are tried in the fire and rewards given. Unbelievers will face no such test. Instead their sins will be judged at the great white throne jugment seat.
I know what you have been taught in the "precepts and doctrines of men" Finn . . . and all those teachers will carry that heavy burden after death . . . such is the price for retaining ancient ignorance and feeding carnal "milk" to the flock. But I am not worried about you, Finn as long as you love Christ and are following His commands to "love God and each other" . . . the erroneous beliefs you have been indoctrinated with will have a price . . . but it will be minimal.
To the first part yes, of course. And we've already explained, time and time and time and time again, about what happens when we die. You just don't listen. It seems really weird for you to be asking these questions when you should already know the answers.
I am not asking what happens when you die.
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