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I see you are now willing to discuss the topic. Good.
It is quite clear the evild people were left outside (Jesus spells it out) where there is weeping and gnasing of teeth. It has nothing to do with people who had already died, as the Bible teached that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness, and even Luke 13 mentions Abraham on the good side, while the evil ones were thrown out.
"God will have all mankind be saved"
None of the scriptures you have quoted on this thread can nullify that declaration.
A.E. Knoch was one of the most prominent URs of the last century, and he believed the Bible is the word of God.
In the summation of one of his books he wrote,
"I, for one, freely confess that, without a knowledge of the consummation, when God will reconcile all and become All in all, I could not have confidence in a deity who allowed the world to work itself into such a mess, and who can do little more for most men than to sweep them into destruction, extinction or torment.
But now, how can I distrust God? Mankind is just where He has brought it. The effect of all the present evil and distress will be salutary. God will get glory out of it, and men will be prepared by it to appreciate the gifts He has in store for them all."
You say Amen .... I say here's how Knoch distrusts God:
Knoch wants to dictate the terms of salvation.
Knoch wants to be the great I AM
Knoch concludes that if he doesn't get his way:
"I could not have confidence in a deity who allowed the world to work itself into such a mess, and who can do little more for most men than to sweep them into destruction, extinction or torment."
Jesus says the same answer ...for Jesus is the same yesterday today and forever:
"I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!"
There is only one problem Rodger about your link, is that it teaches that there is a place called hell, even though it denotes a temporal place. This is inconsistent. Gehenna/Lake of Fire is literal and real, but it only pertains to that which transpired in the physical world...i.e. 70 AD Jerusalem. Hades/Sheol isn't really a place at all, but rather an existence void of consciousness and unseen, a waiting place for the dead, awaiting resurrection. Temporal or eternal was never the issue, as God would never send someone into a incorporeal fiery depths for whatever period, for any period. This is a complete divorce from the ancient understanding that was predominantly allegoric and symbolic of what actually happened in real life. Such was the case in ancient literature.
most ETers have their cyber fingers stuck in their cyber ears
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin
You say Amen .... I say here's how Knoch distrusts God:
Knoch couldn't trust a god who would let anyone suffer forever.
He proves that the Bible doesn't teach such a god.
But most ETers have their cyber fingers stuck in their cyber ears and don't even want to examine that kind of proof to see if it has any merit.
ETer's motto seems to be, "Don't disturb me with the facts; I've already made up my mind."
PROOF THAT THE BIBLE TEACHES UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION biblical studies: The Problem of Evil and the Judgments of God - Contents
There is only one problem Rodger about your link, is that it teaches that there is a place called hell, even though it denotes a temporal place. This is inconsistent. Gehenna/Lake of Fire is literal and real, but it only pertains to that which transpired in the physical world...i.e. 70 AD Jerusalem. Hades/Sheol isn't really a place at all, but rather an existence void of consciousness and unseen, a waiting place for the dead, awaiting resurrection. Temporal or eternal was never the issue, as God would never send someone into a incorporeal fiery depths for whatever period, for any period. This is a complete divorce from the ancient understanding that was predominantly allegoric and symbolic of what actually happened in real life. Such was the case in ancient literature.
Did you open the link sciotamicks?
I don't see any indication that it teaches there is a place called hell.
I see you are now willing to discuss the topic. Good.
It is quite clear the evild people were left outside (Jesus spells it out) where there is weeping and gnasing of teeth. It has nothing to do with people who had already died, as the Bible teached that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness, and even Luke 13 mentions Abraham on the good side, while the evil ones were thrown out.
None of that changes Gods declaration to do all he desires, in context, what God is going to do are the things that is OF him. Salvation is of God, not of Man, so God will absolutely save all mankind because that is what he has declared that he will do. That fact does not prevent man from making his life miserable in the meantime.
Of course there are people on the outside, some may wish to deny that and you can argue with them. There is also a hell, as far as the word goes, but that does not mean someone is doomed to be there for eternity.
Christians often use arguments that Jesus himself never used, Jesus never once referred to it being too late, or that there was now people burning in hell or that some human had ceased to exist for not believing correctly.
In fact Jesus asked the pharasees how they will avoid Gahenna and then later told them that they would not see him until they acknowledged him. He told them how they will get out. He did not say there was a point where it was too late, he gave them the answer.
Sure there is a lot of weeping and gnashing of teeth, I hear it from Christians all the time as they fight Gods promise to save all mankind, I hear Christians weep when their belief do not manifest what they have been led to believe, I see them gnash their teeth when it is revealed to them that God loves their enemies as much as he loves them becsuse they feel less special.
There will be people on the outside but scripture also declares that the door is open and let them come there is no too late because it is freely offered forever.
Re 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Final response means I have nothing else to say in response to her bickering. If she wants to discuss something, that is one thing, but if she just wants to bicker over nothing then I have nothing more to say.
Search the forum with key words "word of God" and you will find many threads where we have talked about whether or not the Bible is God's word" and you can read for yourself the replies from your fellow URs, including Phazelwood.
The burden of proof is on you though, no one has to go back and read threads based on a claim you make. As it stands your claim is a lie, just because some do, does not mean we all do. You also fail to distinguish between those who are likely unitarian universalists and Christian universalist. A lot of other instances are probably taken out of context.
Most points I make are to indicate that when a person claims the bible is the words of God it is in an absolute sense that it also supports their specific doctrine. These people will then claim that if I disagree with them, then I must then not believe the word of God or believe the bible is the word of God,. it is mostly a ruse that obviously you have fell for in your haste to try to prove something in error that you cannot actually demonstrate.
I believe the bible is the word of God. You can find my arguments concerning Mike555's belief that you can only learn about God from the bible which I do not agree with. Disagreeing with that does not mean I reject God or the bible. I disagree with a lot of what you believe, that does not mean I reject God or the bible, but many of you try to contort peoples disagreement with a rejection of God and the bible and you all are the liars in that regaurd.
Did you open the link sciotamicks?
I don't see any indication that it teaches there is a place called hell.
I did...the opening statement said:
The words rendered hell in the bible, sheol, hadees, tartarus, and gehenna, shown to denote a state of temporal duration.
The only consistency about this statement is in regards to hades or sheol.
Gehenna and Lake of Fire are not.
As I said...Hades and Sheol, both synonomous in terms to an extent, first is because of Hellenism, and 2nd from ancient Judaism denotes not merely an existence or state, but a destination of the unconscious soul. Sheol merely denotes the dust beneath the ground. Hades is a netherworld, in Greek mythology, that NT writers incorporated into their allegory, for a place where the unconscious soul awaits resurrection. It has no bearing on punishment etc.
The words rendered hell in the bible, sheol, hadees, tartarus, and gehenna, shown to denote a state of temporal duration.
The only consistency about this statement is in regards to hades or sheol.
Gehenna and Lake of Fire are not.
As I said...Hades and Sheol, both synonomous in terms to an extent, first is because of Hellenism, and 2nd from ancient Judaism denotes not merely an existence or state, but a destination of the unconscious soul. Sheol merely denotes the dust beneath the ground. Hades is a netherworld, in Greek mythology, that NT writers incorporated into their allegory, for a place where the unconscious soul awaits resurrection. It has no bearing on punishment etc.
I guess interested readers will read both studies and decide for themselves on the merit of their arguments.
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Another "exhaustive study on Hell"
