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I do not believe Exodus story is about Adam, or God striking down something in every person. I don't even think it is the UR stance, but I am sure one of the URs can confirm it. I believe exodus is an actual historical account about the Jews leaving Egypt.
I do not read the bible as if it were an actual historical account. Obviously, some people do - including some UR believers. The bible is a spiritual book. And thank goodness for that, otherwise, we'd have to conclude that the OT god actually wanted people to slay real children and dash babies against literal rocks, etc.... Reading the bible as a literal book leads to madness, obviously. That is why the churches are filled with hateful people who hate the inhabitants of the world. Yet Christ did not come into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world.
When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt. - Hosea 11:1
I do not read the bible as if it were an actual historical account. Obviously, some people do - including some UR believers. The bible is a spiritual book. And thank goodness for that, otherwise, we'd have to conclude that the OT god actually wanted people to slay real children and dash babies against literal rocks, etc.... Reading the bible as a literal book leads to madness, obviously. That is why the churches are filled with hateful people who hate the inhabitants of the world. Yet Christ did not come into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world.
When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt. - Hosea 11:1
Yes, I believed they were historical accounts most of my life, including when I was UR. But, even then I realized that there were spiritual meanings in those stories which were "decoded" through Christ and the NT.
Can't you just see the looks on the faces of the disciples on the road to Emaus with Jesus, listening as he explained how those "historical accounts" really were pointing to Christ?
Okay, gotcha. I don't agree, obviously. I believe the NT says that the OT accounts are types/shadows which point to Christ. I don't think the meanings are "secret" because they have been "decoded" through Christ and the NT. I think one can miss out on much of the richness and spiritual impact of the OT if one doesn't use Christ as a lens through which to read it. But, to each his own.
How did you end up with this view that Exodus is about God striking down parts of indivuduals. I am just curious, because it seems awfully far fetched. Can you cross reference the NT verses to the ones where God struk down the firstborns.
How did you end up with this view that Exodus is about God striking down parts of indivuduals. I am just curious, because it seems awfully far fetched.
Not "parts of individuals" .... the old Adam.
It was a combination of things. NT passages, for instance, which contrast Adam/Christ and the old/carnal/flesh man being supplanted by the new/spiritual man. Then, the theme throughout the scripture of the older chld being supplanted by a younger child (off-hand: Ishmael/Isaac, Esau/Jacob, Leah's sons/Rachel's sons, Jesse's older sons/David, David's older sons/Solomon...). I saw a pattern beginning to emerge that carries throughout the OT/NT. The old/first is "struck down", the new/last is resurrected in it's place.
I was a Christian ET, then UR. I am now agnostic, Finn. When I am most convinced that there is a God, when I am most convinced that the Bible holds truth about that God, then the truth I see therein is UR-ish: God IS LOVE, therefore all his judgments proceed from that love and accomplish what he desires, which is that all men be saved and come to a knowledge of that truth.
However, I am most uncertain about a conscious after-life, and I tend to think that "salvation" has to do with the here and now. I do not yet have an understanding of how the pieces of that fit with what I see as the Biblical assurance that all are/will be saved.
As Ironmaw said in another thread, we ARE saved; it's NOT a matter of allowing ourselves to be saved, but simply of recognizing that it is a fact. And yet, if even one person does not recognize it in this lifetime and there is no afterlife, then what? I suppose it is possible that the moment of death (based on NDE's which are described as being "timeless") lasts as long as is necessary for one to come into the realization that God is indeed love and they are saved. They would at least die at peace.
Not, perhaps, the happiest scenario ... obviously, I sometimes wish for the "happily forever after" version that lasts an eternity (and sometimes I don't wish for that). But, regardless, I trust in the God that IS LOVE, and I trust myself to that in the here and now. I further trust IF there is an afterlife, the bible and God's nature as revealed by Christ, assures that ALL will come to a knowledge of the truth of their salvation.
It was a combination of things. NT passages, for instance, which contrast Adam/Christ and the old/carnal/flesh man being supplanted by the new/spiritual man. Then, the theme throughout the scripture of the older chld being supplanted by a younger child (off-hand: Ishmael/Isaac, Esau/Jacob, Leah's sons/Rachel's sons, Jesse's older sons/David, David's older sons/Solomon...). I saw a pattern beginning to emerge that carries throughout the OT/NT. The old/first is "struck down", the new/last is resurrected in it's place.
So, there is no connection to the Pharaoh or the firstborns, but whenever God strikes down someone, you always conclude the same?
I was a Christian ET, then UR. I am now agnostic, Finn. When I am most convinced that there is a God, when I am most convinced that the Bible holds truth about that God, then the truth I see therein is UR-ish: God IS LOVE, therefore all his judgments proceed from that love and accomplish what he desires, which is that all men be saved and come to a knowledge of that truth.
However, I am most uncertain about a conscious after-life, and I tend to think that "salvation" has to do with the here and now. I do not yet have an understanding of how the pieces of that fit with what I see as the Biblical assurance that all are/will be saved.
As Ironmaw said in another thread, we ARE saved; it's NOT a matter of allowing ourselves to be saved, but simply of recognizing that it is a fact. And yet, if even one person does not recognize it in this lifetime and there is no afterlife, then what? I suppose it is possible that the moment of death (based on NDE's which are described as being "timeless") lasts as long as is necessary for one to come into the realization that God is indeed love and they are saved. They would at least die at peace.
Not, perhaps, the happiest scenario ... obviously, I sometimes wish for the "happily forever after" version that lasts an eternity (and sometimes I don't wish for that). But, regardless, I trust in the God that IS LOVE, and I trust myself to that in the here and now. I further trust IF there is an afterlife, the bible and God's nature as revealed by Christ, assures that ALL will come to a knowledge of the truth of their salvation.
Hi Pleroo, Thanks for sharing that. I have to say your willingness to share your journey with others (and your raw honest nature in doing so) is a beautiful thing. I really appreciate being "let in" on the journey of a fellow human being on the quest for truth.
Peace friend,
sparrow
I was a Christian ET, then UR. I am now agnostic, Finn. When I am most convinced that there is a God, when I am most convinced that the Bible holds truth about that God, then the truth I see therein is UR-ish: God IS LOVE, therefore all his judgments proceed from that love and accomplish what he desires, which is that all men be saved and come to a knowledge of that truth.
However, I am most uncertain about a conscious after-life, and I tend to think that "salvation" has to do with the here and now. I do not yet have an understanding of how the pieces of that fit with what I see as the Biblical assurance that all are/will be saved.
As Ironmaw said in another thread, we ARE saved; it's NOT a matter of allowing ourselves to be saved, but simply of recognizing that it is a fact. And yet, if even one person does not recognize it in this lifetime and there is no afterlife, then what? I suppose it is possible that the moment of death (based on NDE's which are described as being "timeless") lasts as long as is necessary for one to come into the realization that God is indeed love and they are saved. They would at least die at peace.
Not, perhaps, the happiest scenario ... obviously, I sometimes wish for the "happily forever after" version that lasts an eternity (and sometimes I don't wish for that). But, regardless, I trust in the God that IS LOVE, and I trust myself to that in the here and now. I further trust IF there is an afterlife, the bible and God's nature as revealed by Christ, assures that ALL will come to a knowledge of the truth of their salvation.
Im more of a "you get out what you put in" when it comes to this life. If you waste it on unloving things then you've reaped what you've sewn. Any afterlife is then irrelevant. In death, it is finished.
So, there is no connection to the Pharaoh or the firstborns, but whenever God strikes down someone, you always conclude the same?
I thought I made it pretty clear that I do believe there is a connection with the firstborn of Egypt being struck down. Israel was called out of Egypt ... even from childhood I was taught that this is symbolic for people being called out of their sin into salvation. So, the firstborn of Egypt is the man of sin within each of us, and it is struck down. Israel/Christ/the new spiritual man comes out from, is resurrected, from our Egypt experience of being in bondage to sin.
I thought I made it pretty clear that I do believe there is a connection with the firstborn of Egypt being struck down. Israel was called out of Egypt ... even from childhood I was taught that this is symbolic for people being called out of their sin into salvation. So, the firstborn of Egypt is the man of sin within each of us, and it is struck down. Israel/Christ/the new spiritual man comes out from, is resurrected, from our Egypt experience of being in bondage to sin.
That's what I mean. You do not have a NT connection to the Pharaoh and the firstborns specifically, because you have concluded that whenever OT talks about God striking someone down, you assume it means God symolically striking down sin. This means that the countless examples of God striking down enemies of Israel, like in Joshua's times, it is just the same story of God striking down sin. Why do you think there is so much repetition, if not to establish a historical record?
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.... the old Adam. 
