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Im more of a "you get out what you put in" when it comes to this life. If you waste it on unloving things then you've reaped what you've sewn. Any afterlife is then irrelevant. In death, it is finished.
I find it hard to believe that this life would be irrelevant to an afterlife, but you could be right. I only know with certainty that we have LIFE/LOVE within us in the here and now as well as death/condemnation and as you said, we reap what we sow... we experience what we focus on.
That's what I mean. You do not have a NT connection to the Pharaoh and the firstborns specifically, because you have concluded that whenever OT talks about God striking someone down, you assume it means God symolically striking down sin. This means that the countless examples of God striking down enemies of Israel, like in Joshua's times, it is just the same story of God striking down sin. Why do you think there is so much repetition, if not to establish a historical record?
Exactly! The enemies of Israel/Christ/the new man within each of us, is sin/our old carnal Adam! As heartsong said, lather, rinse, repeat.
Hi Pleroo, Thanks for sharing that. I have to say your willingness to share your journey with others (and your raw honest nature in doing so) is a beautiful thing. I really appreciate being "let in" on the journey of a fellow human being on the quest for truth.
Peace friend,
sparrow
Thank you sparrow. It can be a little scary to put my heart out there in all it's bare-naked truth, so that means a lot to me.
So, there is no connection to the Pharaoh or the firstborns, but whenever God strikes down someone, you always conclude the same?
I don't have time to type this out for you, Finn, but found a good summation of what I'd like to say online:
Quote:
In his letter to the Gentiles at Corinth, after an extensive discussion of the Old Testament account of the experience of the Israelites in the wilderness, he said: "Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come" (1 Corinthians 10:11).
In this passage, the word translated "examples" is the Greek tupos, from which we derive our word "types." Thus the experiences of the Israelites were actually revealed by God to be "types" of Christ and our relation to Him. Therefore, in addition to the many explicit prophecies about Christ in the Old Testament, many other Scriptures can be profitably expounded as "types" of Christ. Indeed, in all the Old Testament Scriptures, as Christ Himself taught, are "things concerning himself" (Luke 24:27). HMM
Thank you sparrow. It can be a little scary to put my heart out there in all it's bare-naked truth, so that means a lot to me.
Yes, it sure can. And not many people do it. They really don't.
But your doing so makes the following quote true for me.
"Courage is not the absence of fear, it is the realization that some things are more important than fear."
What makes it difficult to share the journey is the fact that there will be those (I do not have anyone in mind here on this board.. I am talking about in general) who will misinterpret your words at best and at worst will knowingly attach false meanings to them and then parade them around for others to step on and mock. It's just true. It's the way it is.
Just know that there are those who value and treasure your sharing.
It enables us as a whole to be able to connect with each other on a deeper level.
I was a Christian ET, then UR. I am now agnostic, Finn. When I am most convinced that there is a God, when I am most convinced that the Bible holds truth about that God, then the truth I see therein is UR-ish: God IS LOVE, therefore all his judgments proceed from that love and accomplish what he desires, which is that all men be saved and come to a knowledge of that truth.
However, I am most uncertain about a conscious after-life, and I tend to think that "salvation" has to do with the here and now. I do not yet have an understanding of how the pieces of that fit with what I see as the Biblical assurance that all are/will be saved.
As Ironmaw said in another thread, we ARE saved; it's NOT a matter of allowing ourselves to be saved, but simply of recognizing that it is a fact. And yet, if even one person does not recognize it in this lifetime and there is no afterlife, then what? I suppose it is possible that the moment of death (based on NDE's which are described as being "timeless") lasts as long as is necessary for one to come into the realization that God is indeed love and they are saved. They would at least die at peace.
Not, perhaps, the happiest scenario ... obviously, I sometimes wish for the "happily forever after" version that lasts an eternity (and sometimes I don't wish for that). But, regardless, I trust in the God that IS LOVE, and I trust myself to that in the here and now. I further trust IF there is an afterlife, the bible and God's nature as revealed by Christ, assures that ALL will come to a knowledge of the truth of their salvation.
Honesty is among the highest virtues. Your courage to be truthful in "mixed company" is rare. By "mixed company" I refer to a mixture of those who truly care about you and those who do not.
Exactly! The enemies of Israel/Christ/the new man within each of us, is sin/our old carnal Adam! As heartsong said, lather, rinse, repeat.
I think it is a serious case of twisting the scriptures to support one view. With that approach you can make the Bible support any view point. Don't you think it would have been clearer for the authors to just say that God struck out the sin. Why would the Bible detail the numbers of people from each tribe who were slain in battles or died in diseases and disasters? After all, the OT speaks very clearly about how God felt about sin and the rejection of God. It seems you have decided to go with whatever sounds convenient.
I was a Christian ET, then UR. I am now agnostic, Finn. When I am most convinced that there is a God, when I am most convinced that the Bible holds truth about that God, then the truth I see therein is UR-ish: God IS LOVE, therefore all his judgments proceed from that love and accomplish what he desires, which is that all men be saved and come to a knowledge of that truth.
However, I am most uncertain about a conscious after-life, and I tend to think that "salvation" has to do with the here and now. I do not yet have an understanding of how the pieces of that fit with what I see as the Biblical assurance that all are/will be saved.
As Ironmaw said in another thread, we ARE saved; it's NOT a matter of allowing ourselves to be saved, but simply of recognizing that it is a fact. And yet, if even one person does not recognize it in this lifetime and there is no afterlife, then what? I suppose it is possible that the moment of death (based on NDE's which are described as being "timeless") lasts as long as is necessary for one to come into the realization that God is indeed love and they are saved. They would at least die at peace.
Not, perhaps, the happiest scenario ... obviously, I sometimes wish for the "happily forever after" version that lasts an eternity (and sometimes I don't wish for that). But, regardless, I trust in the God that IS LOVE, and I trust myself to that in the here and now. I further trust IF there is an afterlife, the bible and God's nature as revealed by Christ, assures that ALL will come to a knowledge of the truth of their salvation.
We are in the enigmatic position of being a spiritual product (Consciousness) of a physical process. What makes it more puzzling is that we are aware only of the physicality of our existence through our senses. It requires that we learn to withdraw from those senses to detect the true nature of our being. Your situation is very typical regarding any after life . . . especially when so much is known about physical reality and virtually nothing is known about our spiritual reality. Nevertheless . . . one physical reality is probative . . . energy cannot be destroyed only transformed. Consciousness is pure energy and is therefore eternal . . . whether or not we realize it, Pleroo.
Quote:
Originally Posted by .sparrow.
Hi Pleroo, Thanks for sharing that. I have to say your willingness to share your journey with others (and your raw honest nature in doing so) is a beautiful thing. I really appreciate being "let in" on the journey of a fellow human being on the quest for truth.
Peace friend,
sparrow
Quote:
Originally Posted by .sparrow.
Yes, it sure can. And not many people do it. They really don't.
But your doing so makes the following quote true for me.
"Courage is not the absence of fear, it is the realization that some things are more important than fear."
What makes it difficult to share the journey is the fact that there will be those (I do not have anyone in mind here on this board.. I am talking about in general) who will misinterpret your words at best and at worst will knowingly attach false meanings to them and then parade them around for others to step on and mock. It's just true. It's the way it is.
Just know that there are those who value and treasure your sharing.
It enables us as a whole to be able to connect with each other on a deeper level.
I agree.
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj
Im more of a "you get out what you put in" when it comes to this life. If you waste it on unloving things then you've reaped what you've sewn. Any afterlife is then irrelevant. In death, it is finished.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo
I find it hard to believe that this life would be irrelevant to an afterlife, but you could be right. I only know with certainty that we have LIFE/LOVE within us in the here and now as well as death/condemnation and as you said, we reap what we sow... we experience what we focus on.
What you say about this life being enriched is undeniable, Kat . . . but what you say about our rebirth as Spirit is not. It may be difficult to imagine or even contemplate the duration and content of the next stage . . . but that there will be one is virtually assured by Physics.
I think it is a serious case of twisting the scriptures to support one view. With that approach you can make the Bible support any view point. Don't you think it would have been clearer for the authors to just say that God struck out the sin. Why would the Bible detail the numbers of people from each tribe who were slain in battles or died in diseases and disasters? After all, the OT speaks very clearly about how God felt about sin and the rejection of God. It seems you have decided to go with whatever sounds convenient.
"Twisting the scripture" is a term that I've probably used about other people at times in the past, too (if not out loud, at least I thought it). Until I realized that what looks to me like scripture twisting is simply someone viewing scripture through whatever lens they currently have. In that regard, I think you're right that I do "twist scripture", but I think we ALL do that. You too, Finn. But I don't think it's always or even usually a matter of people itnentionally being deceptive with themselves and others, but just a matter of seeing what we expect to see. I expect to see things in the OT through the lens of Christ/Love, so that's what I see.
To me, what I presented to you is just connecting some really obvious dots that form an extraordinarily beautiful picture.
I find it hard to believe that this life would be irrelevant to an afterlife, but you could be right. I only know with certainty that we have LIFE/LOVE within us in the here and now as well as death/condemnation and as you said, we reap what we sow... we experience what we focus on.
We may know later but thinking on an unknown is not gonna help in living the here n now, is what I meant.. Agnostically speaking.
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