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Finn, "satan" was once perfect… I thought ‘he’ was a sinner from the beginning?
He was perfect when he was created as a cherubim, until the beginning of his new career as a deceiver. The beginning could also refer to the beginning of the story of mankind. It doesn't make any difference.
The long drawn-out controversy between believers in Yahweh and the followers of Baal was a socioeconomic clash of idealogies rather than a difference in religious beliefs. The inhabitants of Palestine differed in their attitude toward private ownership of land. The southern or wandering Arabian tribes (Yahwehites) looked upon land as an inalienable gift of Diety to the clan. They held that land could not be sold or mortgaged.
The northern or more settled Canaanites (Baalites) freely bought, sold and mortgaged their lands. The word Baal means owner. The Baal cult was founded on 2 major doctrines: 1st., the validation of property exchange, contracts and covenants-the right to buy and sell land. 2nd., Baal was supposed to send rain-he was a god of fertility of the soil. Good crops depended on the favor of Baal.
Out of this basic difference in regard for land, there evolved the bitter antagonisms of social, economic, moral and religious attitudes exhibited by the Canaanites and Hebrews. This controversy didn't become a religious issue until the times of Elijah. From the days of this aggressive prophet the issue was fought out along more strict religious lines-Yahweh vs. Baal- and ended in the triumph of Yahweh and the subsequent drive toward monotheism.
By transforming the issue of the olden land mores Elijah launched a vigorous campaign against the Baalites. This was also a fight of the country folk against domination by the cities. It was chiefly under Elijah that Yahweh became Elohim. Elijah began as an agrarian reformer and ended up by exhalting Deity. Baals were many, Yahweh was one-monotheism won over polytheism.
He was perfect when he was created as a cherubim, until the beginning of his new career as a deceiver. The beginning could also refer to the beginning of the story of mankind. It doesn't make any difference.
Really? Is that like "no biggie?"
Jesus said, in John 8:44, "You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies."
Is it true he was perfect as a cherub but perfection includes there being "no truth in him?" or did he have truth in the pre-beginning but then lost the truth in the beginning.... But then if his "native language" is lies... then he was indeed a perfect...liar???
Maybe you could explain how one description differs in the beginning even with your explanation.
Jesus said, in John 8:44, "You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies."
Is it true he was perfect as a cherub but perfection includes there being "no truth in him?" or did he have truth in the pre-beginning but then lost the truth in the beginning.... But then if his "native language" is lies... then he was indeed a perfect...liar???
Maybe you could explain how one description differs in the beginning even with your explanation.
I thought I just explained it. Are you just looking to argue? He is the father of lies, and has been since the beginning of the world, and since he became the devil, but that does not mean he was never a perfect cherumib angel.
I thought I just explained it. Are you just looking to argue? He is the father of lies, and has been since the beginning of the world, and since he became the devil, but that does not mean he was never a perfect cherumib angel.
Jesus said his native language was lies. How can that be your native language if you were aa perfect being? Wouldn't you think his native language would be truth if he was perfect once?
I'm not looking to argue. I'm not interested in changing my own view or yours. If my questioning your (and others') logic offends you don't have to respond.
First off Mike, Isa and Eze both do not show that there is antitype at work, as does the Messianic Psalms. This is a presupposition based on zero scriptural reference. If the scriptures plainly state it as such, then it would be truth as does in the Psalms, but it does not, so therefore, you are eisegetically imposing this train of thought into it without due diligence.
As a full preterist you should not be throwing around terms such as 'Eisegesis' and 'zero scriptural reference.' Full preterism is built on eisegesis and zero scriptural reference. It is a house of cards built on a foundation of quicksand.
You have chosen to no longer believe in Satan, but don't make the pretense that the Scriptures do not speak of Satan as a real being. As Ezekiel 28 shows, and as you have already been told, statements are made in that passage that cannot apply to any man.
To support your new belief that Satan is not a real being you must now argue against the many scriptural references which attest to his existence.
In Matthew 4:5 Satan transported Jesus to to Jerusalem and had Him stand on the pinnacle of the temple.
In Matthew 4:8 Satan took Jesus to a very high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world.
Now whether these involved literal transport or were visions, the point is that Satan was involved in this. Not some Pharisee as you tried to suggest with regard to Matthew 4. Satan offered Jesus the kingdoms of the world, and it was a legitimate offer as Satan is the ruler of this world (John 12:31; 14:30; 16:11).
Jude 1:9 records the words of Michael the archangel to Satan. (Or do you no longer believe in the elect angels either?) 'But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, ''The Lord rebuke you.''
Satan gets permanenty thrown out of heaven during the midpoint of the tribulation. Revelation 12:7-13.
Satan will be confined during the Millennium and temporarily released at the end of the Millennium (Rev 20).
Ephesians 6:10-18 speaks of the spiritual warfare which is not flesh and blood, but against spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. Satan is the leader of these rulers, and powers and world forces of this darkness.
These are just some of the scripture references to Satan.
Quote:
Mike,
There is no such thing a double references, just as there is no such thing as double prophetic implications either. These are pressuppositions that were imposed into theological themes by the 7th day adventists, otherwise known as the first dispensationalists, all related to the scholars in which you have presnted. Henry, Fausset, and may jothers creedal works far outweigh the rumblings of the dispensaitnlal influence in which you have provided. The above scholars you have noted, are in error, in this regard, and many, many others.
In the first post you said the following - 'but that was because I took the creeds over the scriptures, now that is over, thank God.'
Now just above you say this - 'and may jothers creedal works far outweigh the rumblings of the dispensaitnlal influence in which you have provided.'
Make up your mind. And watch your spelling.
No, the theologians I mentioned are not in error. Post #27.
Dispensations are the framework of God's Plan for the ages. But that is not the topic of this thread.
The principle of double reference is a fact. As already stated, the Messianic Psalm such as Psalm 16 where David refers to himself but also to Christ is a perfect example of that. Psalm 16:10 is first of all to David, but the Psalm is ultimately fulfilled in Christ.
So too, Ezekiel 28 is a double reference addressing both the king of Tyre and the power behind the king which is Satan.
Quote:
Matthew Henry:
In this chapter we have, I. A prediction of the fall and ruin of the king of Tyre, who, in the destruction of that city, is particularly set up as a mark for God’s arrows (v. 1–10). II. A lamentation for the king of Tyre, when he has thus fallen, though he falls by his own iniquity (v. 11–19). III. A prophecy of the destruction of Zidon, which as in the neighbourhood of Tyre and had a dependence upon it (v. 20–23). IV. A promise of the restoration of the Israel of God, though in the day of their calamity they were insulted over by their neighbours (v. 24–26).
The famous 18th century Baptist commentator John Gill acknowledged that early Jewish teachers interpreted ‘satan’ as a reference to the natural inclination people have to sin, the ‘evil imagination’:
"…they often say, “Satan, he is the evil imagination”, or corruption of nature…" John Gill (1748), ‘Commentary On the Bible’, note on 2 Corinthians 12:7.
The ‘devil’ is also sometimes used of evil rulers or kingdoms: 1 Peter 5:8 (quoting Proverbs 20:2; 28:15); Revelation 12:9 (quoting Daniel 7:7, 19-23). The Bible says the devil has been destroyed by Jesus: Jesus, by his death, destroyed the devil (Hebrews 2:14-18), and the devil is that which has the power of death, which is sin (Romans 7:8-11, 1 Corinthians 15:56-57). This shows us that ‘the devil’ is a term used for the natural tendency of men to sin.
As noted previously, this understanding of ‘satan’ is not new. It has been a historic interpretation among Jewish commentators, and for centuries it has also been believed by various Christian commentators. It is not a new doctrine which has been invented recently.
The following is a list of Christian expositors who held to this same view of ‘satan’, preceded by their date:
1858: Horace Bushnell
1854: Hosea Ballou
1842: John Epps
1842: William Balfour
1836: Amos Alcott
1819: ‘Philalethes’
1804: John Simpson
1799: ‘AN’
1791: William Ashdowne
1772: Thomas Barker
1761: Hugh Farmer
1737: Arthur Sykes
1727: Sir Isaac Newton
1699: Ludowick Muggleton
1695: Balthassar Bekker
1651: Thomas Hobbes
Stay busy IN the Word.
Michael the archangel in Jude 1:9 was not talking to the natural inclination people have to sin, the ‘evil imagination’. He was addressing the cherub angel Satan which is a title, not a name per se.
Revelation 12:7 is not referring to "the evil imagination”, or corruption of nature…" Revelation 12:7 'And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. And the dragon and his angels waged war, 8] and there was no longer a place for them in heaven. 9] And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. 10] And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, ''Now the salvation, and the ower, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, who accuses them before our God day and night. 11] ''And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even to death. 12] ''For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time.'' 13] And when the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child.
Revelation 12 is talking about angels both elect and fallen. Satan is the leader of the fallen angels. They are thrown out of heaven for good at the midpoint of the tribulation which again, is still future. Satan in this passage is identified as the serpent of old which links him to the serpent in Genesis 3. Not that the serpent was actually Satan, but rather, Satan used the serpent to deceive the woman.
The Bible does NOT say that Satan has been destroyed by Jesus. Hebrews 2:14 says '...that through death He might render powerless (katargeó) him who had the power of death, that is, the devil.
Hebrews 2:14 is not saying that Satan has been destroyed or that he is no longer active, it is simply saying that Satan's power over believers has been annulled.
Your studies in preterism are carrying you further and further away from the truth and into completely unscriptural beliefs.
It is quite the opposite. Full Preterism is bringing me closer to the truth than ever before. I have always maintained that the strict foundation to Christianity lay in the sacrfice, death and resurreciton of Jesus Christ. Without this doctrine, all will fail. This is our foundation. I appreciate your hard work, no kidding brother....I do. But as a full Preterist, and your view of it, really has no bearing on what will eventually be of the church. The dispensational futurist/young earth creationist views within the church is going to die far faster than most think. With the growing understanding, AND literacy progressing within the congregation and followers of Christ, we are now questioning what our pastors have been shoving down our throats for over a milennia. You and I probably won't see this, as we are getting old, but my kids will definitely reap the rewards from the fruits of Full Preterism's labor. Guaranteed. However, considering the OP, which really has nothing to do with Full Preterism, as it was taken from a study among ancient Judaic texts, forums and Christian studies from the likes of the scholars in which I have already mentioned. Blessings to you.
Last edited by sciotamicks; 07-11-2011 at 08:42 PM..
I believe you are disregarding the context surrounding Eze 28, as well as the language in which the Hebrews implied when referring to great kings such as himself...
Finn also disregards the immediate context of the entire section of oracles. Ezekiel speaks on Ammon, Moab, Edom, Philistia, Tyre, Sidon and then finishes his oracles against the nations by delivering a lengthy collection of oracles against Egypt. Ezekiel 28 is just one of a series of oracles about variou nations, in this case about Tyre.
Double-dealing is deceitful; it distorts the truth for the purpose of misleading. And as the great deceiver, it suits Man's purpose to have
people believe that Satan exists. It makes it easier for him to carry out his plan of gaining control over this world; and over you!
However, you were not given a Spirit of fear, but one containing the following:
"Love, power, and that of a sound mind."
Use it, if you have it because most have lost it.
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then he was indeed a perfect...liar???
