Once Saved Always Saved (disciples, Holy Spirit, Jesus, Bible)
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Matthew 24:10-13 "10 At that time many will turn away (choice) from the faith and will betray and hate each other (sin) , 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness (sin) , the love of most will grow cold (choice... This may not seem like a choice, but I believe it is... If it isn't our own choice to let our love grow cold, then by whose power did it grow cold?), 13 but the one who stands firm (Another choice. This scripture strongly implies, I feel, that there is the option to not stand firm) to the end will be saved (If this speaks not of salvation then please explain what it is speaking of to me.)."
I also bring attention back to this verse. Timothy 4:1 "The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."
The problem is you are not taking into account that God is responsible for our salvation.
We may fall away from Him, but He does not remove Himself from us.
I'm sure you've read Rom. 8:39 and 2 Tim. 2:13 - but you still choose not to believe that God is able to hold you.
It's your loss that you believe you must keep your salvation - and you can't experience the freedom God has for those in His family. And no - it's not freedom to sin and live life as we please.
The problem is you are not taking into account that God is responsible for our salvation.
We may fall away from Him, but He does not remove Himself from us.
I'm sure you've read Rom. 8:39 and 2 Tim. 2:13 - but you still choose not to believe that God is able to hold you.
It's your loss that you believe you must keep your salvation - and you can't experience the freedom God has for those in His family. And no - it's not freedom to sin and live life as we please.
Remember the Israelites in the wilderness?...Because of their unbelief of Hawyaw's promises, He said that they would never enter His Rest...So, Where will they be?...
You know, the beauty of it is even though I would advise you that I believe that, that is the wrong choice... You still CAN choose to do such... You aren't forced to believe in God, which makes loving Him so much more real...
I don't believe in the Old Testament dogma of "Orignal Sin" & "The Fall of Man." I believe those stories were simply used as allegorical tales to explain that, since Man was imbued with Free Will, and thus wanton desires from God, that we have a tendency to fall into Sin, which can therefore separate us from God's Grace.
Nor do I believe in the OSAS school of thought. That would give Man free reign to commit more sin once he was saved; he'd have a sort of Divine Carte Blanche.
And I don't think Jesus believed in OSAS either. The lesson He tried to impart upon us was to do Good Works and to love and help out neighbors, heck, even our enemies. But see? The whole "love your enemy as you do yourself" teachings of Jesus is oft-times too difficult for people. IN fact, for most Christians! Thus, they cling to the OSAS as a sort of life preserver, deluding themselves that they can fall into sin and backslide all they want, because, hey, "I'm saved, and afterall, God Loves a sinner as long as I still believe."
Nonsense.
Jesus' message was simple but not easy. We have to love and help each other, people, and remember that whatever we fo the the "least among us" we do to Him.
Following that message is what separates the Truly Saved from the Wannabe Saved.
Peace out, hombres.
I've read Lorraine Boettner's "The Reformed Doctrine Of Predestination" and Calvin's Institutes...You say you are a Calvinist. however some of your stance is foreign to the Calvinistic viewpoint...It does not sound as though you abide by TULIP...
Remember the Israelites in the wilderness?...Because of their unbelief of Hawyaw's promises, He said that they would never enter His Rest...So, Where will they be?...
Different dispensation - before the church age.
Today, the Holy Spirit is promised to those who believe. He is the seal of my (I will speak for myself) future inheritance.
Yes, even though she had been given grace, she squandered it through disobedience. The Jews did the same thing after God brought them out of Egypt with a mighty hand. Those who were twenty years and older, save Joshua and Caleb, died in the wilderness to never see the promised land. God was disgusted with that generation. Had it not been for Moses' petitions, God would probably have destroyed them all. Woe unto those who reject holiness!
God's truth is this: the soul that refuses to come out of all their sins and live holy before God will be eternally damned. OSAS will teach men otherwise, but don't fall for it; it's your soul on the line. What will a man give in exchange for his soul?
Graham...Hawyaw said because of their unbelief they shall never enter my rest...It had nothing to do with rejecting holiness...You are twisting that, which is pretty much impossible to do because it says what it says...However, you are attempting it just the same...
Let's talk about the OT... Are you telling me that it was all part of God's plan to raise up a people and then regret ever making them to then kill them? Genesis 6:5-6 "5The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. 6 The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled" So God's plan was to create people so He could then deeply trouble Himself? Unless you believe in a God that sabotages Himself, it would seem like to me that He didn't know that the world would turn their back on Him. So God knows every heart that will not turn towards Him? Why are we commanded to take the message to the whole world when it is already known by God who will accept it and who won't? Are you telling me that God knew before He created each person, whether they would accept Him or not? Why did He even create those that would not accept Him, is that not cruelty to those individuals? I don't know about you, but the God I worship and love is not a cruel overlord... I'm not positive if you were gesturing towards predestination, but that's what it seemed like to me. Sorry if I misunderstood.
You have zeal without knowledge my boy...Hawyaw is OMNISIENT...So, He created them knowing He would destroy them one day...Simple as that...
Matthew 24:10-13 "10 At that time many will turn away (choice) from the faith and will betray and hate each other (sin) , 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness (sin) , the love of most will grow cold (choice... This may not seem like a choice, but I believe it is... If it isn't our own choice to let our love grow cold, then by whose power did it grow cold?), 13 but the one who stands firm (Another choice. This scripture strongly implies, I feel, that there is the option to not stand firm) to the end will be saved (If this speaks not of salvation then please explain what it is speaking of to me.)."
I also bring attention back to this verse. Timothy 4:1 "The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."
You are missing the point of Hawyaw's OMNISCIENCE, OMNIPOTENCE and OMNIPRESENCE, son...
John 15:1-8 “1 'I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. 5 I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.'”
"If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit." You WILL bear much fruit. This isn't a "you might bear fruit" or "you can bear fruit if you really want to". No, "You WILL bear much fruit". If you do not remain in the vine then you shall no longer bear fruit. Therefore if you aren't bearing fruit, you aren't remaining in the vine and "If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burn." And lets keep in mind that when you remain in something, that means that you are in it... You cannot REMAIN in something that aren't already in, in the first place.
This is, indeed, one of the "controversial" doctrrines. It has stirred a lot of passions on both sides of the discussion.
I tend to think that a lot of people get hung up here because deep inside themselves they feel that there is at least that small part that we must contribute to our salvation.
People have emphasized that their salvation is all of God...that they did nothing at all to earn even one bit of it. It is all God's grace, and nothing of themselves.
Yet they feel if they do or don't do something they may somehow lose it, which kind of makes it a joint effort between God and man.
And I can see how this might be understood. We find verses in the Bible that talk about how the one who "endures to the end will be saved". This strongly suggests that there will be those who will not endure to the end. And these, as a result, will not be saved.
This, of course, presupposes that these individuals had once been saved, but failed to endure to the end. We have an example in 1 John 2:18,19 (below)
18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
The gist of this passage is that those who did not continue with them were never "one of them" to begin with.
So, can I claim to people that I have become saved? Would it be that when I declare this, that I am saved; but that somewhere down the road I may no longer be?
I believe we need to consider some things, first. Salvation has several aspects. First, and absolutely foremost, is the work that Christ has done on my behalf. I am a sinner who stands guilty before God because of my sins. The Bible speaks of God's wrath against the "children of disobedience". The Bible mentions the wrath of God in a number of places. I will not deal with this in detail here.
But God had ordained that His wrath would be carried out against sin, of which we all stand guilty. But beyond that, God, in His deep desire to have a people for Himself, resolved this matter by sending His Son to be the "propitiation" (or, atoning sacrifice) for our sins. This way our guilt would be laid upon Christ, and we would be declared "not guilty".
Now, before we get into the part about how we are to believe on Him, I just would like to say that if Christ has paid for my sins... if He, in fact, has become a "curse" in my place so that I can be justified in the sight of God through Him, then I stand guiltless before God. I no longer have these sins 'credited' to my account. Note below:
Gal 3:13 13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
There is a lot more to say by way of explanation. The Lord willing, I will continue my thoughts a bit later.
You are right on...Amen...
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