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So I have been studying Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS) for over a year and I believe it now to be false. First I ask you to look up my scriptures and look at them in the context of what they were written, for even though I feel that I am using them in context, I am not a perfect human, as none of us are.
Enduring:
In Matthew 10 Christ addresses His disciples as He prepares them for going out unto the world to do His work. Read the full passage if you like, but I would like to bring special attention to one verse.
Matthew 10:22 "You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved."
Then in Matthew 24 Christ is again talking to His disciples and He again cautions them to stand firm.
Matthew 24:10-13 "10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved."
In Mark 13 Christ is talking privately to Peter, James, John and Andrew.
Mark 13:13 "Everyone will hate you because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved."
James 1:12 "Blessed is the one who perseveres under trial because, having stood the test, that person will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him."
Then Colossians... I would like to first direct you towards the beginning of Paul's letter to those in Colossae. He addresses the letter to those who are believer's in Christ.
Colossians 1:2 "To God’s holy people in Colossae, the faithful brothers and sisters in Christ: Grace and peace to you from God our Father."
So I think we can gather that Paul is only addressing the believers living in Colossae. Later in this same chapter he speaks to them about standing firm.
Colossians 1:21-23 "21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. 22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant."
I would like to call special attention to the fact that Paul gave an "If" statement in this paragraph. "... to present you holy in His sight, without blemish and free from accusation, IF you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel." IF you CONTINUE in your FAITH. Keep in mind, these are believers Paul is talking to.
So to sum up this point. I ask you, what are these warnings for? What must we endure? If our salvation is completely secure, WHAT ARE WE ENDURING? WHY ARE WE URGED TO STAND FIRM TILL THE END, IF IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO NOT STAND FIRM?
Branches:
John 15:1-8 “1 'I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. 5 I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.'”
In this passage Christ states that He is “the vine” and we are “the branches”. If we REMAIN in Christ we will bear fruit. But if we do not bear fruit (We stop remaining in Him) we will be cut off. He tells us to REMAIN in Him, as He remains in us. That is pretty self-explanatory that we don't HAVE to remain in Him. We have the choice to no longer accept nourishment from the root.
Romans 11:16-24 “16 If the part of the dough offered as first-fruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. 22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree! ”
This has been one of the most compelling scriptures I have read in regards to opposition to OSAS. Unbelief causes Christians to be cut off from the olive root. Belief causes them to be again returned to the olive root. God has “sternness to those who FELL.” He also has “kindness to you, PROVIDED that you CONTINUE in His kindness. Otherwise, you also will be CUT OFF.” (If you read Romans 1:1-8 you will realize that Paul is talking to the Believers in Rome.)
Hell/Lost Son:
In Matthew 5,6, and 7 Christ gave His Sermon On the Mount, and I would like to point out some specific scriptures from these chapters.
Matthew 5:21-22 “ 21 You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell."
Why would Christ be warning a bunch of sinners to not call their brother a fool or they would suffer the fire of hell, when they ARE sinners, and they are going to hell anyway?
Matthew 7:21-23 “21 Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
Even those who drove out demons! Even those who preform miracles! Even those who prophesy! They will be turned away! Does it not take faith to do these things? Must you not believe to do these things? How else would you explain that they were turned away but because of a choice at a certain point in their lives to no longer have faith and to no longer believe?
Revelation 21:6-8 6 He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
The unbelieving are listed among those that are murderers as a separate sin. Christ never said that if you are both unbelieving and a murderer that you will die the second death. No He said that the murderer's will go to the fiery lake of burning sulfur, just as the unbelieving will go. He never said that you had to be more than one of these things to suffer the second death. You can believe, but if you are a murderer, who doesn't repent for murdering then you shall still go to hell!
Christ says that if you do not forgive, than you shall not receive forgiveness.
Matthew 6:14;15 “14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.”
If you cannot forgive those that sin against you, then you yourself shall NOT be forgiven. When you accept Christ into your life, you don't suddenly become a perfect person in every way. It is a process, a walk. This is why we are born into the spirit! We are little children that must be taught what to do by our father, but just like children we don't have to listen to our father.
Take the parable of the Prodigals Son. (Luke 15:11-32) I will quote the last part here, but please, read the whole parable, if you would like.
Luke 15:31-32 “31‘My son,’ the father said, ‘you are always with me, and everything I have is yours. 32 But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’”
Look at that... “because this brother of yours was dead and is alive AGAIN;” I don't know about you, but I think to be something AGAIN, you had to be it in the first place.
Other:
Romans 6:11-17 "11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. 14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace. 15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance."
Again, read Romans 1:1-8, and you will see that Paul has addressed his letter to the believers.
Paul says to “not let sin reign in your mortal body”. Why would Paul tell them not to let this happen, unless it could happen? Then he says, “What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey...” So what is he saying here? What must we not do? We must not sin. Why must we not sin? So that we do not become slaves to it! Remember being a slave to sin leads to death.
1 Corinthians 9: 24-27 "24 Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize. 25 Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last, but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. 26 Therefore I do not run like someone running aimlessly; I do not fight like a boxer beating the air. 27 No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize."
Paul STRIKES his body to keep make it his slave! These are not soft words! If PAUL didn't think he was "saved" enough to not keep himself in check, why do you? And keep in mind, we RUN for the prize! I don't know about you, but running can be fierce and competitive, and you have to train your body to keep running, or you won't be able to go the whole distance in the race. Just the same, if we don't train our bodies to not become slaves to sin, then we will not be able to last the whole race.
Free Will:
Ok I don't think I need to pull up the scriptures that support free will. Maybe another day. If you believe in predestination, then this paper isn't for you.
First I would like to point out in 1 Corinthians 1:2 That Paul addresses his letter to believers
1 Corinthians 1:2 “To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be his holy people, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ—their Lord and ours”
Now that we can see that only those who are “sanctified in Christ Jesus” are being addressed, we shall move on.
1 Corinthians 1:18 “For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.”
If we look here, we can clearly see that we as believers are “being saved”, it wasn't a one time thing, it's ongoing. It's a continuous thing.
Now Luke 9:23 “Then he said to them all: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me.”
This is very clear, I believe, that salvation is not just a one time thing. It is a daily sacrifice to Christ, to pick up your cross and follow Him. We are to die to ourselves DAILY, not just once! We must realize that we can't just give our hearts to God once, and expect everything to be well between us forever more! We must DAILY accept His forgiveness. We must DAILY accept His love. We must DAILY pick up our cross and follow Christ.
If we are given free will to decide to follow Christ. Then once we decide to follow Christ, it is taken away... I don't understand how that works. Someone once asked me, “Why would God take away a gift that He has freely given?” Isn't freewill a gift? Yet if we are forced to keep salvation, then the gift of freewill has been taken away.
Once Saved Always Saved Considered:
These are just a few of the most common scriptures that I see used regarding Once Saved Always Saved.
John 10:27-28 “27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
In regards to somebody plucking us out of the Father's hand, this is referring to men who would attempt to remove us from the Father's hand. It would be dangerous if men were able to remove us from the hand of God, wouldn't it? No man can take eternal life away from us, regardless how hard they try. Just as no man can force us to sin, but we, by our own choice, can fall into sin.
Romans 10:38-39 “38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”
Again, this is speaking of outside influences and not about what we ourselves can do. While nobody else can separate us from God's love, we can depart from the love relationship that God desires with us.
It is our choice to move away from God not anyone else's. John 15:10 “If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love.” IF you keep my commands you will remain in my love... IF!
John 11:25-26 “25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; 26 and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”
Yes “whoever LIVES by believing in me”, this is an active verb, you must live by believing in Him and if you do you will never die. But if you ever stop believing in Him, then you shall! 1 John 3:14-15 “14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other. Anyone who does not love remains in death. 15 Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.” If ANYONE hates a brother or sister they are a murderer.
If God gives a free gift, why would he take it back? Romans 11:29 “for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.”
God isn't going to offer you something then turn around and change His mind. That is what it is saying here. The offer to abide in Christ is available to the world, but that doesn't mean that once we are in Christ, we will always abide in Him. However, if we are given and we do not make use of it, it can be taken from us. Luke 19:26 “He replied, ‘I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what they have will be taken away.”
John 15:6 “If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.” It says if you REMAIN in Him.
John 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.
It's also the will of God for all to be saved, but apparently that isn't going to happen. Not everything that takes place on earth is the will of God. Just because He desires us to draw near to Him doesn't mean we follow through with it.
Final Notes:
I believe that the same lie that was given in the garden with Adam and Eve, is again presenting itself to us. If you eat of this fruit you surely shall not die... If you are given salvation, you surely shall not lose it. How can we be so naive to assume that we are given trials for no reason? If once we are saved, we still experience trials and tribulations... Why? Why are we being tested? If it is impossible to fail the class, why are there still exams of our faith? The devil is not an idiot. Not to glorify his name, for he is nothing compared to God. But yet still, he is daily trying to pull the saints from God, and what better way to do so, then to have them believe that they cannot be pulled. If someone believes that they cannot fall, then they will have no respect when it comes to how far they lean over the edge.
I would like to add one final verse to this paper.
Timothy 4:1 "The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."
To abandon something, you must first have it. You cannot abandon what you do not have. This was a verse obviously talking about believers. An unsaved man cannot abandon the faith, because they never had faith to begin with. Why on earth would the Holy Spirit [of truth] come forth with a warning about the unsaved abandoning the faith? How can the unsaved be deceived away from a place of faith that they were never at to begin with? Why would the devil come with his doctrines to seduce the unsaved, who he already holds captive at his will? (2 Timothy 2:25-26 “25 Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26 and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.”)
Please I pray that you would consider my words. It's not just a simple matter of whose right and whose wrong. It is a matter of life and death. Pray about it, I implore you. Seek earnestly God's wisdom, I have for over a year! Study this yourself. Dig into it, ask yourself what is truth, ask God what is truth.
Thank you for taking the time to read this, and I hope that you find the truth, whatever it may be.
That's a pretty long post you got there but you make a very good case. I tend to go back and forth on the OSAS thing, I'm still not sure about it either. Why would we be warned to "stand firm til the end" and THEN we will be saved if we had no worries about our salvation? I think we can lose it, if we stop believing and turn away from God. Just my .02 worth.
The way to guarantee you endure to the end is to , make sure you have the baptism of the Holy Spirit,... other ways is to pray for a lead in the spirit and, pray for more of the Lord in your life and, pray that dark spirit are out and staying out ,....When your are victorious here then you will be able to love the Lord more , another way to endure to the end is to pray for a Church that preaches the gospel and has evidence of Holy Spirit, and build a doctrine of Going to Church, no matter if you have to change churches many times to find truth
The way to guarantee you endure to the end is to , make sure you have the baptism of the Holy Spirit,... other ways is to pray for a lead in the spirit and, pray for more of the Lord in your life and, pray that dark spirit are out and staying out ,....When your are victorious here then you will be able to love the Lord more , another way to endure to the end is to pray for a Church that preaches the gospel and has evidence of Holy Spirit, and build a doctrine of Going to Church, no matter if you have to change churches many times to find truth
So Paul beats his body to keep it in check so that he is not disqualified for the prize because he was not yet baptized into the holy spirit, Is that what you are telling me?
God promises that he will save all mankind, it really isn't about once saved always saved in the first place.
However the phrase is not as much of an issue as the way many people who use it. From my observations when OSAS is used in conjunction with a doctrine that suggests it is possible that someone can be eternaly separated from God is that they often will say that "someone wasn't saved in the first place".
So ultimatly from the perspective of that kind of doctrine, it is pretty much an empty and meaningless phrase.
So I have been studying Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS) for over a year and I believe it now to be false. First I ask you to look up my scriptures and look at them in the context of what they were written, for even though I feel that I am using them in context, I am not a perfect human, as none of us are.
Enduring:
In Matthew 10 Christ addresses His disciples as He prepares them for going out unto the world to do His work. Read the full passage if you like, but I would like to bring special attention to one verse.
Matthew 10:22 "You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved."
Then in Matthew 24 Christ is again talking to His disciples and He again cautions them to stand firm.
Matthew 24:10-13 "10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved."
In Mark 13 Christ is talking privately to Peter, James, John and Andrew.
Mark 13:13 "Everyone will hate you because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved."
James 1:12 "Blessed is the one who perseveres under trial because, having stood the test, that person will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him."
Then Colossians... I would like to first direct you towards the beginning of Paul's letter to those in Colossae. He addresses the letter to those who are believer's in Christ.
Colossians 1:2 "To God’s holy people in Colossae, the faithful brothers and sisters in Christ: Grace and peace to you from God our Father."
So I think we can gather that Paul is only addressing the believers living in Colossae. Later in this same chapter he speaks to them about standing firm.
Colossians 1:21-23 "21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. 22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant."
I would like to call special attention to the fact that Paul gave an "If" statement in this paragraph. "... to present you holy in His sight, without blemish and free from accusation, IF you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel." IF you CONTINUE in your FAITH. Keep in mind, these are believers Paul is talking to.
So to sum up this point. I ask you, what are these warnings for? What must we endure? If our salvation is completely secure, WHAT ARE WE ENDURING? WHY ARE WE URGED TO STAND FIRM TILL THE END, IF IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO NOT STAND FIRM?
Branches:
John 15:1-8 “1 'I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. 5 I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.'”
In this passage Christ states that He is “the vine” and we are “the branches”. If we REMAIN in Christ we will bear fruit. But if we do not bear fruit (We stop remaining in Him) we will be cut off. He tells us to REMAIN in Him, as He remains in us. That is pretty self-explanatory that we don't HAVE to remain in Him. We have the choice to no longer accept nourishment from the root.
Romans 11:16-24 “16 If the part of the dough offered as first-fruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. 22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree! ”
This has been one of the most compelling scriptures I have read in regards to opposition to OSAS. Unbelief causes Christians to be cut off from the olive root. Belief causes them to be again returned to the olive root. God has “sternness to those who FELL.” He also has “kindness to you, PROVIDED that you CONTINUE in His kindness. Otherwise, you also will be CUT OFF.” (If you read Romans 1:1-8 you will realize that Paul is talking to the Believers in Rome.)
Hell/Lost Son:
In Matthew 5,6, and 7 Christ gave His Sermon On the Mount, and I would like to point out some specific scriptures from these chapters.
Matthew 5:21-22 “ 21 You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell."
Why would Christ be warning a bunch of sinners to not call their brother a fool or they would suffer the fire of hell, when they ARE sinners, and they are going to hell anyway?
Matthew 7:21-23 “21 Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
Even those who drove out demons! Even those who preform miracles! Even those who prophesy! They will be turned away! Does it not take faith to do these things? Must you not believe to do these things? How else would you explain that they were turned away but because of a choice at a certain point in their lives to no longer have faith and to no longer believe?
Revelation 21:6-8 6 He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
The unbelieving are listed among those that are murderers as a separate sin. Christ never said that if you are both unbelieving and a murderer that you will die the second death. No He said that the murderer's will go to the fiery lake of burning sulfur, just as the unbelieving will go. He never said that you had to be more than one of these things to suffer the second death. You can believe, but if you are a murderer, who doesn't repent for murdering then you shall still go to hell!
Christ says that if you do not forgive, than you shall not receive forgiveness.
Matthew 6:14;15 “14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.”
If you cannot forgive those that sin against you, then you yourself shall NOT be forgiven. When you accept Christ into your life, you don't suddenly become a perfect person in every way. It is a process, a walk. This is why we are born into the spirit! We are little children that must be taught what to do by our father, but just like children we don't have to listen to our father.
Take the parable of the Prodigals Son. (Luke 15:11-32) I will quote the last part here, but please, read the whole parable, if you would like.
Luke 15:31-32 “31‘My son,’ the father said, ‘you are always with me, and everything I have is yours. 32 But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’”
Look at that... “because this brother of yours was dead and is alive AGAIN;” I don't know about you, but I think to be something AGAIN, you had to be it in the first place.
Other:
Romans 6:11-17 "11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. 14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace. 15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance."
Again, read Romans 1:1-8, and you will see that Paul has addressed his letter to the believers.
Paul says to “not let sin reign in your mortal body”. Why would Paul tell them not to let this happen, unless it could happen? Then he says, “What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey...” So what is he saying here? What must we not do? We must not sin. Why must we not sin? So that we do not become slaves to it! Remember being a slave to sin leads to death.
1 Corinthians 9: 24-27 "24 Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize. 25 Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last, but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. 26 Therefore I do not run like someone running aimlessly; I do not fight like a boxer beating the air. 27 No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize."
Paul STRIKES his body to keep make it his slave! These are not soft words! If PAUL didn't think he was "saved" enough to not keep himself in check, why do you? And keep in mind, we RUN for the prize! I don't know about you, but running can be fierce and competitive, and you have to train your body to keep running, or you won't be able to go the whole distance in the race. Just the same, if we don't train our bodies to not become slaves to sin, then we will not be able to last the whole race.
Free Will:
Ok I don't think I need to pull up the scriptures that support free will. Maybe another day. If you believe in predestination, then this paper isn't for you.
First I would like to point out in 1 Corinthians 1:2 That Paul addresses his letter to believers
1 Corinthians 1:2 “To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be his holy people, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ—their Lord and ours”
Now that we can see that only those who are “sanctified in Christ Jesus” are being addressed, we shall move on.
1 Corinthians 1:18 “For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.”
If we look here, we can clearly see that we as believers are “being saved”, it wasn't a one time thing, it's ongoing. It's a continuous thing.
Now Luke 9:23 “Then he said to them all: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me.”
This is very clear, I believe, that salvation is not just a one time thing. It is a daily sacrifice to Christ, to pick up your cross and follow Him. We are to die to ourselves DAILY, not just once! We must realize that we can't just give our hearts to God once, and expect everything to be well between us forever more! We must DAILY accept His forgiveness. We must DAILY accept His love. We must DAILY pick up our cross and follow Christ.
If we are given free will to decide to follow Christ. Then once we decide to follow Christ, it is taken away... I don't understand how that works. Someone once asked me, “Why would God take away a gift that He has freely given?” Isn't freewill a gift? Yet if we are forced to keep salvation, then the gift of freewill has been taken away.
Once Saved Always Saved Considered:
These are just a few of the most common scriptures that I see used regarding Once Saved Always Saved.
John 10:27-28 “27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
In regards to somebody plucking us out of the Father's hand, this is referring to men who would attempt to remove us from the Father's hand. It would be dangerous if men were able to remove us from the hand of God, wouldn't it? No man can take eternal life away from us, regardless how hard they try. Just as no man can force us to sin, but we, by our own choice, can fall into sin.
Romans 10:38-39 “38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”
Again, this is speaking of outside influences and not about what we ourselves can do. While nobody else can separate us from God's love, we can depart from the love relationship that God desires with us.
It is our choice to move away from God not anyone else's. John 15:10 “If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love.” IF you keep my commands you will remain in my love... IF!
John 11:25-26 “25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; 26 and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”
Yes “whoever LIVES by believing in me”, this is an active verb, you must live by believing in Him and if you do you will never die. But if you ever stop believing in Him, then you shall! 1 John 3:14-15 “14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other. Anyone who does not love remains in death. 15 Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.” If ANYONE hates a brother or sister they are a murderer.
If God gives a free gift, why would he take it back? Romans 11:29 “for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.”
God isn't going to offer you something then turn around and change His mind. That is what it is saying here. The offer to abide in Christ is available to the world, but that doesn't mean that once we are in Christ, we will always abide in Him. However, if we are given and we do not make use of it, it can be taken from us. Luke 19:26 “He replied, ‘I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what they have will be taken away.”
John 15:6 “If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.” It says if you REMAIN in Him.
John 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.
It's also the will of God for all to be saved, but apparently that isn't going to happen. Not everything that takes place on earth is the will of God. Just because He desires us to draw near to Him doesn't mean we follow through with it.
Final Notes:
I believe that the same lie that was given in the garden with Adam and Eve, is again presenting itself to us. If you eat of this fruit you surely shall not die... If you are given salvation, you surely shall not lose it. How can we be so naive to assume that we are given trials for no reason? If once we are saved, we still experience trials and tribulations... Why? Why are we being tested? If it is impossible to fail the class, why are there still exams of our faith? The devil is not an idiot. Not to glorify his name, for he is nothing compared to God. But yet still, he is daily trying to pull the saints from God, and what better way to do so, then to have them believe that they cannot be pulled. If someone believes that they cannot fall, then they will have no respect when it comes to how far they lean over the edge.
I would like to add one final verse to this paper.
Timothy 4:1 "The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."
To abandon something, you must first have it. You cannot abandon what you do not have. This was a verse obviously talking about believers. An unsaved man cannot abandon the faith, because they never had faith to begin with. Why on earth would the Holy Spirit [of truth] come forth with a warning about the unsaved abandoning the faith? How can the unsaved be deceived away from a place of faith that they were never at to begin with? Why would the devil come with his doctrines to seduce the unsaved, who he already holds captive at his will? (2 Timothy 2:25-26 “25 Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26 and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.”)
Please I pray that you would consider my words. It's not just a simple matter of whose right and whose wrong. It is a matter of life and death. Pray about it, I implore you. Seek earnestly God's wisdom, I have for over a year! Study this yourself. Dig into it, ask yourself what is truth, ask God what is truth.
Thank you for taking the time to read this, and I hope that you find the truth, whatever it may be.
AMEN!
The Holy Spirit has revealed the Truth to you, His Child.
John 10:27-28 “27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
In regards to somebody plucking us out of the Father's hand, this is referring to men who would attempt to remove us from the Father's hand. It would be dangerous if men were able to remove us from the hand of God, wouldn't it? No man can take eternal life away from us, regardless how hard they try. Just as no man can force us to sin, but we, by our own choice, can fall into sin.
V. 29 was left out.
John 10:29 - "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand."
All does include all.
Also, the verses involving "enduring until the end" (Matt. 10, 24; Mark 13) do not speak of eternal security or salvation from sin by believing the gospel. What are they being saved from? What are the circumstances that Christ is referring to? Persecution. Physical deliverance through trial. This is not about salvation from sin.
It's a shame that you believe Christ and the Father are not powerful enough to keep their promise - that you have a choice to override God and remove yourself from His family. You don't - once you are part of Him.
Just like the angel grabbed Lot by the hand and pulled him out of Soddom... so will true believers be placed into His presence.
I am not getting into a long discussion on this - but will just state that once you are in the family of God, you will always be in the family of God.
V. 29 was left out.
John 10:29 - "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand."
All does include all.
Also, the verses involving "enduring until the end" (Matt. 10, 24; Mark 13) do not speak of eternal security or salvation from sin by believing the gospel. What are they being saved from? What are the circumstances that Christ is referring to? Persecution. Physical deliverance through trial. This is not about salvation from sin.
It's a shame that you believe Christ and the Father are not powerful enough to keep their promise - that you have a choice to override God and remove yourself from His family. You don't - once you are part of Him.
Just like the angel grabbed Lot by the hand and pulled him out of Soddom... so will true believers be placed into His presence.
I am not getting into a long discussion on this - but will just state that once you are in the family of God, you will always be in the family of God.
You forgot to mention that the Angel grabbed Lot's hand and the hands of his wife and their two daughters.
They were told "Flee for your lives! Don’t look back, and don’t stop anywhere in the plain! Flee to the mountains or you will be swept away!"
BUT... what happened to his wife? She disobeyed, looked back, and was turned to a pillar of salt.
... If you turn your back on God, you will not be saved.
You forgot to mention that the Angel grabbed Lot's hand and the hands of his wife and their two daughters.
They were told "Flee for your lives! Don’t look back, and don’t stop anywhere in the plain! Flee to the mountains or you will be swept away!"
BUT... what happened to his wife? She disobeyed, looked back, and was turned to a pillar of salt.
... If you turn your back on God, you will not be saved.
Gen 19:15-16 - When morning dawned, the angels urged Lot, saying, "Up, take your wife and your two daughters who are here, or you will be swept away in the punishment of the city." But he hesitated. So the men seized his hand and the hand of his wife and the hands of his two daughters, for the compassion of the LORD was upon him; and they brought him out, and put him outside the city.
At that point, they are saved from God's wrath that occurred in the city. After that, yeah, she turned into a pillar of salt because she did not follow specific instructions given by the angels. They said if Lot's family turned back, they would be destroyed. It was promised, and it happened.
Salvation from sin is about being saved from God's wrath in the end. And those who believe are promised to be delivered from God's wrath.
What I don't understand is why your screen name is "saved" (past tense) - when you believe you could lose your salvation later in life. Shouldn't it be "being saved" or "process of salvation"? Why did you use past tense as though you are already saved - if in fact you don't believe that?
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