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Old 11-20-2011, 07:18 AM
 
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that's a confusing part of the bible.
Was he caught up in the heavens?
Same with Elijah.

What about the scripture that's says "No man has seen God and lived"?
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Old 11-20-2011, 07:25 AM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
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Originally Posted by jerseygal4u View Post
that's a confusing part of the bible.
Was he caught up in the heavens?
Same with Elijah.

What about the scripture that's says "No man has seen God and lived"?
They went to heaven, where God reigns, the same place where believers go to after physical death.
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Old 11-20-2011, 07:51 AM
 
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That can't be possible,because aren't the dead "asleep".
I thought that was the whole purpose of having a ressurection?
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Old 11-20-2011, 08:02 AM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
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Originally Posted by jerseygal4u View Post
That can't be possible,because aren't the dead "asleep".
I thought that was the whole purpose of having a ressurection?
The dead that are "asleep" are ones who died as a believer, no one else.

There is a whole lot more purpose to the ressurection.
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Old 11-20-2011, 10:46 AM
 
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Originally Posted by jerseygal4u View Post
that's a confusing part of the bible.
Was he caught up in the heavens?
Same with Elijah.

What about the scripture that's says "No man has seen God and lived"?
That is a good question. However most ppl give the answer they've been taught. [Just as I would have myself some time ago]. They will tell you that both Enoch, Elijah and believers when they die, all went/go to heaven.

I will get back to Enoch and Elijah in a minute, but first let's look at what Christ Himself taught on this subject.

Did He teach we go to heaven upon death? No. Read all 4 gospels and see if He ever said either of these things:

1.) "When you die you go to heaven."

2.) "I am returning to take you to heaven."

The only time He even remotely suggested #1 is in John 14. However, again, this is misunderstood. Why do I say that? Well let's look at the passages:

2 In my Father’s *house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

* "house are many mansions." We've been taught this means we go to 'heaven' when we die. But there's a problem here. The word house does not mean 'heaven.' Matter of fact the word heaven isn't even in the definition of the word house.

In this context it means: household/family. And the word mansions doesn't mean 'a big house' it means, dwelling places. So this verse is actually saying, 'in my Father's household/family are many dwelling places.' And what does He tell us in vs. 16,17?

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

So we are the mansions, the dwelling places to be filled with the Holy Spirit.

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also

Now if you just read v. 3 by itself it again sound as if Christ is going to heaven to make a 'mansion' for us, but is that really what He's saying? No. Note He says, " I will come again." Has that happened yet? No.

He has only, so far, come one time. Obviously He comes again at the 7th trump to receive His ppl to Himself, to always be with Him.

So what did Christ teach? As I stated above I use to think He taught we go to heaven upon death also, but one day I was reading/studying the chapter 6 of the book of John, and I read this:

Joh 6:39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

So I turned to John 11 to see what He told Martha when her brother died:

21 Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.
22 But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee.
23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day


Now back to Enoch/Elijah. Again we were taught God came and took both of them to heaven. But is that actually what the Scriptures say? No.

If you read the whole story [too long to post in this reply] you will see that God simply removed Elijah from one place to another. And this passage shows this is true:


2 Chron. 21:12 ¶ And there came a writing to him [king Jehoram]from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus saith the LORD God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah.

Then factor these things in:

John 3:13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

Acts 2:34 For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself: 'The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, till I make Your enemies Your footstool.

And Heb. 11 the 'hall of faith:'


Heb. 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Then it mentions Noah, Abraham, Sarah, and Jacob.

Then what does v. 13 tell us about these ppl beginning with Enoch?

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.


Heb. 11:32 ¶ And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:

Elijah was a prophet.

I hope that helps?
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Old 11-20-2011, 11:22 AM
 
Location: Arizona
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Originally Posted by mshipmate View Post
I hope that helps?
To put it, into simpler terms: "His nature was changed."
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Old 11-20-2011, 12:24 PM
 
Location: Florida
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Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
To put it, into simpler terms: "His nature was changed."
E x a c t l y !



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Old 11-20-2011, 02:15 PM
 
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they were both raptured into heaven for a specific reason, and the reason of their rapture is they are the two witnesses of revelation who will shortly come back to earth to finish their work assigned to them - preaching the gospel & doom to the world... - they'll also play a huge role in converting Israel which is actually the task of the 144.000..) after the end of their preaching both of them will be killed by the AntiChrist but then they will be ressurected and go (back) to heaven.
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Old 11-20-2011, 02:32 PM
 
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Originally Posted by doesntspringtomind View Post
they were both raptured into heaven for a specific reason, and the reason of their rapture is they are the two witnesses of revelation who will shortly come back to earth to finish their work assigned to them - preaching the gospel & doom to the world... - they'll also play a huge role in converting Israel which is actually the task of the 144.000..) after the end of their preaching both of them will be killed by the AntiChrist but then they will be ressurected and go (back) to heaven.
So Elijah sent the letter to king Jehroam around 7 yrs later from heaven then?


And BTW the word heaven in 2 Ki. 2:1 doesn't mean the 'abode of God.'

1 And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into *heavens by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.


* heavens, shamayim shaw-mah'-yim dual of an unused singular shameh {shaw-meh'}; from an unused root meaning to be lofty; the sky (as aloft; the dual perhaps alluding to the visible arch in which the clouds move, as well as to the higher ether where the celestial bodies revolve):--air, X astrologer, heaven(-s).

As an example:

2 Chron. 7:13 If I shut up heaven [shamayim] that there be no rain, or if I command the locusts to devour the land, or if I send pestilence among my people;

2 Kings 2:3 And the sons of the prophets that were at Bethel came forth to Elisha, and said unto him, Knowest thou that YHVH will take away thy master from *thy head to day? And he said, Yea, I know it; hold ye your peace.

*"thy head" this expression is the Fig. Synecdoche [of the part] where the word 'head' means himself.

So we see that the sons of the prophets and Elisha know this event is to take place. But note something here where the first occurence of the event is mentioned. No one says, "Knowest thou that YHVH will take away thy master bodily, and or alive, into God's abode." Remember that for this event will be mentioned again several times and witnessed by Elisha himself.

2 Kings 2:9 ¶ And it came to pass, when they were gone over, that Elijah said unto Elisha, Ask what I shall do for thee, *before I be taken away from thee. And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me.

*Again note nothing is said about Elijah being taken bodily into God's abode

2 Kings 2:11-12,16-17
11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
12 And Elisha saw it, and he cried, My father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof. And he saw him no more: and he took hold of his own clothes, and rent them in two pieces.

16 And they said unto him, Behold now, there be with thy servants fifty strong men; let them go, we pray thee, and seek thy master: *lest peradventure the Spirit of YHVH hath taken him up, and cast him upon some mountain, or into some valley. And he said, Ye shall not send.
17 And when they urged him till he was ashamed, he said, Send. They sent therefore fifty men; and they sought three days, but found him not.

*Note, the prophets knew ahead of time God was going to take Elijah away. Elisha also knew of the event and saw the event. Now the prophets want to go look for Elijah so, looking at the entire story, and using common sense here, let's reason this out.

If Elisha saw the event and saw Elijah being taken up beyond the heavens/sky to the abode of God don't you think he would have said something such as, "It will do you no good to look for him for he's in The heaven." But he didn't and finally said, "Go look for him."

So we see that God intended to take Elijah up into the sky to move him to another place.
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Old 11-20-2011, 03:24 PM
 
Location: Arizona
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"We will be carried to a higher place, even while we yet live."
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