Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Quote:
Ezekiel 18: 24 "But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
Again, this can only refer to an unsaved person who was righteous only in his own mind.
Moderator cut: deleted
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
The Bible teaches that desire to live in willful sin is dead in the lives of a believer?
Since you do not believe what is written, and falsely say it says something it does not, then Ezekiel 24 through 26, which COMPLETELY! and TOTALLY! refutes your false claims, then there is nothing more I can say.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
Ask yourself: Is the desire live in willful sin alive in your life?
Everyday a thought or circumstance comes my way to test me...to test where my heart is...and it comes from God. At those points, I HAVE A CHOICE TO MAKE! and I choose God! over comitting the sin!..AT ANY GIVEN POINT FINN JARBER, I COULD CHOOSE TO DO THE WRONG THING...AND IF I DO...I AM DONE!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
Or do you desire to avoid it? The answer will help you understand my point.
No, the answer (which I gave above) does NOT help me understand your point at all.
You are saying that one cannot lose their salvation, and I am telling you what God's word says, In Ezekiel, as well as MANY! other passages throughout the entire Bible!, that a person who faithfully serves God can make a BAD! WILLFULL! choice to sin, and lose their salvation!
If you believed the word of God, instead of TWISTING! it into a lie, you would see this.
You folks know not the scriptures nor the power therein: A Christian certainly can fall away, lose their faith and lose their salvation. Note the following texts:
Heb 6:4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit,Heb 6:5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age,Heb 6:6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
Heb 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, Heb 10:27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Heb 10:28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.Heb 10:29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?
Note that this text cites several examples of the Israelites from the OT that fell away.
1Co 10:11 These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come.1Co 10:12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall!
Jn 15:2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.
Jn 15:6 If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
Note Paul's warning here to the Christians in Rome.
Ro 8:12 Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it.Ro 8:13 For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,
Also note Jesus explanation to the parable of the sower.
Lk 8:13 Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.
There are many more references, but I don't want to hear your arguments and rationalizations in an attempt to deny the clear words of God. This should be more than sufficient to make the point. Yes, there are texts that indicate God's help in remaining faithful, and the Bible makes clear that God's power is beyond Satan's so that Satan cannot snatch us out of God's hand, which is certainly true, but that doesn't mean that Christians cannot ignore God and walk away from him. That would be a denial of man's free will.
Lastly I should add there are other indications from the Bible that one's name can be deleted from the Book of Life.
Ex 32:33 The LORD replied to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book.
Finally, from Ezekiel:
Eze 18:24 "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.
Prairieparson, you said ''I don't want to hear your arguments and rationalizations in an attempt to deny the clear words of God.'' It is tragic that most believers do not realize that the believer CANNOT lose his salvation for any reason whatsoever.
Ex 32:33 does not refer to the book of life. It seems to be a reference to not being included in the census of the people.
Matthew Henry notes with reference to Ex 32:33, and illustrating from Ezekiel 13:9 where false prophets will not be written down in the register of the house of Israel. 'They shall not be written in the writing of the house of Israel, neither shall they enter into the land of Israel.'
Matthew Henry writes...
' (2.) His great desire of the people's welfare (v. 32): Yet now it is not too great a sin for infinite mercy to pardon, and therefore if thou wilt forgive their sin. What then Moses? It is an abrupt expression, "If thou wilt, I desire no more; if thou wilt, thou wilt be praised, I shall be pleased, and abundantly recompensed for my intercession." It is an expression like that of the dresser of the vineyard (Lu. 13:9), If it bear fruit; or, If thou wilt forgive, is as much as, "O that thou wouldest forgive!" as Lu. 19:42, If thou hadst known is, O that thou hadst known. "But if not, if the decree has gone forth, and there is no remedy, but they must be ruined; if this punishment which has already been inflicted on many is not sufficient (2 Co. 2:6), but they must all be cut off, blot me, I pray thee, out of the book which thou hast written;" that is, "If they must be cut off, let me be cut off with them, and cut short of Canaan; if all Israel must perish, I am content to perish with them; let not the land of promise be mine by survivorship." This expression may be illustrated from Eze. 13:9, where this is threatened against the false prophets, They shall not be written in the writing of the house of Israel, neither shall they enter into the land of Israel. God had told Moses that, if he would not interpose he would make of him a great nation, v. 10. "No," says Moses, "I am so far from desiring to see my name and family built up on the ruins of Israel, that I will choose rather to sink with them. If I cannot prevent their destruction, let me not see it (Num. 11:15); let me not be written among the living (Isa. 4:3), nor among those that are marked for preservation; even let me die in the last ditch." ' Exodus 32 Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible
The Bible Knowledge Commentary, Old Testament, An Exposition of the Scriptures by the Dallas Seminary Faculty, states on p. 156 with regard to Ex. 32: 32 ...
'Moses told God that if He refused to forgive His people he would prefer to have his name removed from the book God had written (Ex. 32:32). Some say this was the book of life (Rev. 20:15; 21:27) that lists believers names but, more likely, it was the census of the people. Moses' statement probably indicated he was willing to die a premature death (but not suffer eternal torment in hell).'
I won't take the time to go through all the passages you listed, but I will explain Hebrews 6:4 and Hebrews 10:26. Neither one of them implys that the believer can lose his salvation.
Hebrews 6:4 is simply referring to to Jewish believers who were again performing animal sacrifices instead of trusting in the finished sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross. These Jewish Christians were being persecuted by non-believing Jews to reject the teachings of Christianity and return to Judaism. And it was hard for many of the Jews to forget the old ritual ways of the age of Israel. They had difficulty with, and were uncomfortable with the changes which the new dispensation of the church had brought. These believers that the writer of Hebrews was addressing had been believers for quite some time. Hebrews 5:11 says that they had become dull of hearing. V5:12 states that they should have been teachers by that time, but that they needed to be taught once again the basic elementary principles of the oracles of God.
But they had slipped back into the system of animal sacrifices which was no longer extant. And as long as they continued to perform those animal sacrifices they could not be renewed to repentance - a change of mind concerning Christ and concerning dead works, because by the animal sacrifices they were crucifying to themselves the Son of God. They needed to stop the animal sacrifices and then they be retaught the basic principles which they had forsaken.
They had not lost their salvation. They had fallen away from whatever grace orientation they had once had. They had not, and could not fall away from their eternal salvation. They were simply believers who had chosen to go back to the legalism of Judaism rather than trusting in the finished work of Christ.
Hebrews 10:26-31 is a warning to believers not to defect from the faith [10:23]. The writer probably had in mind Numbers 15:19-21 which speaks of the defiant person who despises the Word of the Lord and deliberately breaks the commandments. That person would be cut off. Killed. Heb 10:26 again addresses the issue of Jewish believers going back into the animal sacrifices of Judaism. The punishment spoken of in Heb 10:29-31 is speaking of temporal punishment. Not eternal punishment. The spiritual rebellion of apostasy calls for a greater punishment than the capital penalty that was administered under the Mosaic law. But the writer of Hebrews did not have eternal punishment in mind. There are other kinds of divine retribution which can be administered to the wayward believer which are worse than immediate death (See Lamentations 4:6-9).
Heb 10:30 quotes Deut 32:35 ''Vengence is Mine, I will repay.'' The Lord will judge His people. The Lord would allow His enemies judge Israel.
'The fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries' in Hebrews 10:27 is temporal punishment, not eternal punishment. God can and does administer increasing punishment to disobedient believers which can escalate to the sin 'unto death' in which the disobedient believer is taken home to heaven in a state of disgrace. The punishment is designed to encourage the believer to begin obeying God. But if he will not respond to the discipline, then God will take him out of the world under maximum divine discipline. But he has not lost his salvation.
Hebrews 10:39 speaks of 'those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.
The Bible Knowledge Commentary says that the word 'soul' in Heb 10:39 should be understood in the Hebraic sense of the person himself, or his life, and refers in this context to the way in which persistence in the faith preserves an individual from the calamities that overtake those who ''shrink back.''
There is nothing a person can do to earn eternal salvation, and there is nothing the believer can do to maintain his eternal salvation, or to lose his salvation. Once he has been saved through faith in Christ, he is secure in the hands of the Lord.
The other passages you listed do not mean that a believer in Christ can lose his salvation, but I don't want to take the time to go into them.
Thanks. In my OP I mentioned I heard someone claim that a believers name could be blotted out, but I did not mention where I heard it. I heard it in TV, from John Hagee. I never liked him politisizing sermons, but this time I knew he said something that was not even biblical, because he went on to assure that a believer can indeed lose his/her salvation.
I heard that as well. I haven't listened to John Hagee for too long, but I have always liked what he said. But I was surprised when he said there was no such thing as once saved always saved. I turned the station after he said that.
No. For the answer to be yes, God would be a liar.
It is sad that most believers think that you lose your salvation. One of Satan's strategies for the believer is to get him to worry about losing his eternal salvation, as that keeps him off balance in his spiritual life.
I'm always glad when a believer understands that his salvation is secure.
Once he has been saved through faith in Christ, he is secure in the hands of the Lord.
The other passages you listed do not mean that a believer in Christ can lose his salvation, but I don't want to take the time to go into them.
You needn't have bothered to attempt to explain away the scriptures in the first place. We can read the Bible.
Hebrews 6:4-6 is explicit. It is no wonder you did not cite the scripture along side your explanation.
4)It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5)who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6) if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. (NIV)
It is all so common in your explanations that you try to tell us that the words used in the Bible have some alternate theological meaning.
Your explanation is not convincing. Does the explicit message conveyed in that principle being taught about those who FALL AWAY say:
1) impossible to revive them again to repentance?
or in your theological terms,
2) never capable of falling away.
Once saved always saved is comforting thought for career criminals, politicians, and theologians who are tickling of the ears for those who cannot maintain their integrity.
Hebrews 6:4-6 absolutely indicates some FALL AWAY, and it is IMPOSSIBLE for them to be brought back to repentance.
One key point to remember is the word "repentance" in that cited scripture. We do not "fall away" because of sin. We can fall away for unrepentant sin and disregard for maintaining our integrity to our commitment to follow Jesus, thus subjecting him to public disgrace.
Last edited by BWW1962; 11-27-2011 at 09:20 PM..
Reason: spelling
You needn't have bothered to attempt to explain away the scriptures in the first place. We can read the Bible.
Hebrews 6:4-6 is explicit. It is no wonder you did not cite the scripture along side your explanation.
4)It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5)who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6) if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. (NIV)
It is all so common in your explanations that you try to tell us that the words used in the Bible have some alternate theological meaning.
Your explanation is not convincing. Does the explicit message conveyed in that principle being taught about those who FALL AWAY say:
1) impossible to revive them again to repentance?
or in your theological terms,
2) never capable of falling away.
Once saved always saved is comforting thought for career criminals, politicians, and theologians who are tickling of the ears for those who cannot maintain their integrity.
Hebrews 6:4-6 absolutely indicates some FALL AWAY, and it is IMPOSSIBLE for them to be brought back to repentance.
One key point to remember is the word "repentance" in that cited scripture. We do not "fall away" because of sin. We can fall away for unrepentant sin and disregard for maintaining our integrity to our commitment to follow Jesus, thus subjecting him to public disgrace.
We all fall short of the glory of God. Thanks be to Christ that He died for ALL of our sins.
We just have to accept the free gift of God, and that is His sons sacrifice.
Christ is God. He is the only one that can judge righteously. You are deceiving yourself. Satan is the accuser of the brethren. Christ has defeated the evil one. Yet you continue to accuse fellow believers.
Last edited by june 7th; 11-29-2011 at 01:51 PM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
