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You needn't have bothered to attempt to explain away the scriptures in the first place. We can read the Bible.
Hebrews 6:4-6 is explicit. It is no wonder you did not cite the scripture along side your explanation.
4)It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5)who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6) if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. (NIV)
It is all so common in your explanations that you try to tell us that the words used in the Bible have some alternate theological meaning.
Your explanation is not convincing. Does the explicit message conveyed in that principle being taught about those who FALL AWAY say:
1) impossible to revive them again to repentance?
or in your theological terms,
2) never capable of falling away.
Once saved always saved is comforting thought for career criminals, politicians, and theologians who are tickling of the ears for those who cannot maintain their integrity.
Hebrews 6:4-6 absolutely indicates some FALL AWAY, and it is IMPOSSIBLE for them to be brought back to repentance.
One key point to remember is the word "repentance" in that cited scripture. We do not "fall away" because of sin. We can fall away for unrepentant sin and disregard for maintaining our integrity to our commitment to follow Jesus, thus subjecting him to public disgrace.
Reading is not understanding. Falling away does not refer to losing salvation. You can't attempt to understand Hebrews 6:4 without taking the surrounding passages into consideration. The passage has nothing whatsoever to do with the believer being able to lose his salvation. The believer has eternal security. The passage is about Jewish believers who were being enticed to go back into the practices of Judaism. As long as they had their legalistic attitude they could not repent of their dead works.
Here. These two sites on Hebrews 6:4-6 say what I said but go into more detail.
For all of you heretics that believe you can lose your salvation, I have one question for you.
How many sins does it take to be blotted out of the book of life or lose your salvation?
Since when is Jesus a heretic or a liar
Matthew 10:22 All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
Matthew 24:13 but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
How many sins? it takes but just one ......... "without faith it is impossible to please God"
2 Timothy 2:12 if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us;
Hebrews 3:14
We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.
Hebrews 6:11 We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure
2 Peter 2:20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in itand overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.
In Revelation Jesus is commending people for their endurance to the end. Now why would he do that if such a possibility of losing doesn't exist?
Revelation 2:3 You have persevered and have endured hardships for my name, and have not grown weary.
Revelation 2:26 To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations—
What do you think Jesus meant when he said this in Luke 12:46-48
The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.
“That servant who knows his master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked"
The point of Luke 12:46-48....The servant who doesn't do my will to the end ( Rev 2:26) is
assigned with the unbelievers ... not saved forEVER
will be beaten with many blows ... not saved for EVER
Jdaelectro: You may be confused. It is not sin that condemns anyone, but unbelief. That is, if someone who once loved God, but fell away because he replaced his love for God with love for money. Another way to explain it is that impenitence, is also lack of faith in God. It is impenitence that can also condemn someone. 2 Examples.
David sinned with Bathsheba, and murdered her husband. David was confronted with his sin by the prophet. He repented and was forgiven. If he had not repented, then he would have been lost.
Second example. The Pharisee and the Tax collector. They are both sinners before God. The Pharisee thinks he is righteous based on his good works, and impenitent. The tax collector is penitent. They are both sinners before God, and only one leaves the temple justified, the penitent tax collector. So its a lack of being penitent that can condemn someone, who fails to repent when God's law condemns them and who refuses to hear God's will.
So, to review, here are three ways someone can fall away and lose their salvation.
1. Replace their love for God with love for something else. (Idolatry)
2.Impenitence
3. Lack of confidence in God's mercy, that God will forgive sins based on Jesus sacrifice on the cross for all sins. This person might very well then trust in their works or goodness to save them. (works righteousness)
Reading is not understanding. You can't attempt to understand Hebrews 6:4 without taking the surrounding passages into consideration. The passage has nothing whatsoever to do with the believer being able to lose his salvation. The believer has eternal security. The passage is about Jewish believers who were being enticed to go back into the practices of Judaism. As long as they had their legalistic attitude they could not repent of their dead works.
Here. These two sites on Hebrews 6:4-6 say what I said but go into more detail.
Matthew 10:22 All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
Matthew 24:13 but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
How many sins? it takes but just one ......... "without faith it is impossible to please God"
2 Timothy 2:12 if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us;
Hebrews 3:14
We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.
Hebrews 6:11 We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure
2 Peter 2:20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in itand overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.
In Revelation Jesus is commending people for their endurance to the end. Now why would he do that if such a possibility of losing doesn't exist?
Revelation 2:3 You have persevered and have endured hardships for my name, and have not grown weary.
Revelation 2:26 To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations—
What do you think Jesus meant when he said this in Luke 12:46-48
The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.
“That servant who knows his master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked"
The point of Luke 12:46-48....The servant who doesn't do my will to the end ( Rev 2:26) is
assigned with the unbelievers ... not saved forEVER
will be beaten with many blows ... not saved for EVER
It amazes me how someone can take scripture and rip it to shreds. Please stop listening to your false teachers that preach a Christ that would let someone fall from His hands.
Jdaelectro: You may be confused. It is not sin that condemns anyone, but unbelief. That is, if someone who once loved God, but fell away because he replaced his love for God with love for money. Another way to explain it is that impenitence, is also lack of faith in God. It is impenitence that can also condemn someone. 2 Examples.
David sinned with Bathsheba, and murdered her husband. David was confronted with his sin by the prophet. He repented and was forgiven. If he had not repented, then he would have been lost.
Second example. The Pharisee and the Tax collector. They are both sinners before God. The Pharisee thinks he is righteous based on his good works, and impenitent. The tax collector is penitent. They are both sinners before God, and only one leaves the temple justified, the penitent tax collector. So its a lack of being penitent that can condemn someone, who fails to repent when God's law condemns them and who refuses to hear God's will.
So, to review, here are three ways someone can fall away and lose their salvation.
1. Replace their love for God with love for something else. (Idolatry)
2.Impenitence
3. Lack of confidence in God's mercy, that God will forgive sins based on Jesus sacrifice on the cross for all sins. This person might very well then trust in their works or goodness to save them. (works righteousness)
So if you get angry with someone then go and get in a car accident with un repentant anger and die you will go to hell?
Reading is not understanding. You can't attempt to understand Hebrews 6:4 without taking the surrounding passages into consideration.
We can see that reading does not provide understanding for you and many others. That was also understood by the inspired writers of the scriptures, and thus Paul followed up with an example in verses 7 & 8 to help illustrate the principle for those who are slow in understanding. These Bible translators even provide a heading for this section to help their readers understand.
The Peril of Falling Away
1Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment. 3And this we will do, if God permits. 4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. 7For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned. (New American Standard Bible)
You should take the heading and surrounding passages of the Bible into consideration instead of the false doctrines of men you continue to promote. This passage is explicit in the principle being taught. Your contradiction of those inspired words by saying they teach that it is impossible for the saved to fall away, is absurd.
"...and it ends up being burned." Maybe Paul's illustration for those who have fallen away (once saved, fallen away) is the vision of being saved for the "once saved always saved" believers, but is does sound more like judgment.
Last edited by BWW1962; 11-27-2011 at 11:54 PM..
Reason: grammer
Revelation 3:5 He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
I heard someone claim that the above means that a saved person can have his name blotted out of the book of life and lose his salvation if they sin. That would imply two things:
1. A person can lose his/her salvation
2. Salvation is through works (sinless life)
Both are false.
Luke 10:20 However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.
"He who overcomes" does not mean a sinless person, it simpleu refers to a saved person. Their names will never be blotted out of from the Lamb's Book Of Life.
I don't know why people worry about things like this, or even TALK like this to someone else.
Everything in religion is based on FAITH. No one knows for sure, what the hereafter is like, or even if there is one! (I do believe there is one.) But it is all on FAITH.
People should not even JUDGE others to say things like this. Don't worry, all is well. ♥ ALL IS WELL.
I don't know why people worry about things like this, or even TALK like this to someone else.
Everything in religion is based on FAITH. No one knows for sure, what the hereafter is like, or even if there is one! (I do believe there is one.) But it is all on FAITH.
People should not even JUDGE others to say things like this. Don't worry, all is well. ♥ ALL IS WELL.
Universalism is a false doctrine as well.
We must accept the Gospel of Christ. God didn't make automaton's. We have a free will.
So if you get angry with someone then go and get in a car accident with un repentant anger and die you will go to hell?
Give me a break.
Please don't cheapen what Christ did.
Please try read the Bible verses again, closely
The Peril of Falling Away
1Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment. 3And this we will do, if God permits. 4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. 7For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.
In a similar example to the one you gave: If your anger has caused you to do violence, grave bodily harm, to someone in a car accident, AND you are forever unrepentant for your actions (I did it, and would do it again!), it is YOU who cheapens what Christ did for us (put Him to shame). READ the scriptures again.
In your specific example you portray this as a "one off" anger/ accident AND killed yourself, and thus have no opportunity to demonstrate repentance in this life. Therefore, at the time of judgment Jesus will know your heart and so it is a moot point. Your example really does not fit the criteria for "fallen away"
The topic is not to engage is a debate about the severity of sin and scale unrepentence that constitutes "fallen away". The point is these verse clearly identify that those who are saved CAN fall away, and judgment awaits them. It identifies them as SAVED by the description given, and is also clearly says then FALLEN AWAY, and how it is IMPOSSIBLE to renew them to REPENTANCE. The illustration obviously demonstrates that yielding of thistles and thorns, which is the metaphor for attributes of those fallen away, is deserving of judgment.
You are missing the point to think just sinning of any kind meets the threshold for "falling away"
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Saved, and THEN fallen away.
