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Hi Katzpur Of course God was not surprised He planned for Adam and Eve to fall. They were created perfectly. for the purpose they had been created for, which was to fall so they and the rest of us could be saved through redemption by Jesus. The next question is why did God set it up so we all fall( sin) and must be saved by Jesus? He has determined that this was the best way to accomplish his plan so if we trust him, and I do, it is the best way. His way are higher than ours.
It is called growing up and maturing . . . as ALL life must do. No mysterious God's ways . . . just the way it is. Even species must evolve and mature through generations . . .not just its individual members in each generation.
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God's plan does not have any glitches, he is perfect and his plan is perfect.
That does bring up the question of free will. Why does everyone say we have free will. Where in the scriptures do they find that. God works in us to do his will and pleasure. We make choices but they are not free from influences and circumstance, they are all caused choices. God is in control. That is more true than most people believe. They believe that man's free will over rules God. How vain and full of ourselves can we be?
God has seen the end before the beginning. That means He has already planned every choice we will make and the circumstance that influences us to make those choices. So if the choice we make is other than what God has planned than he would be wrong and would not be God.
Free will is the unavoidable requirement of DOMINION over the earth. This establishes the bounds of our free will . . . the physical world. God is concerned with our spiritual development and maturation, period! We must overcome and endure this physical existence over which WE have Dominion. Confusing the domains in which free will operates is a major mistake and creates all the confusion over God's control and interventions.
That means He has already planned every choice we will make and the circumstance that influences us to make those choices. So if the choice we make is other than what God has planned than he would be wrong and would not be God.
Not necessarily, God, however, knowing every choice we could ever make, has prepared the way for them all.
God did not plan that I would do the bad things I have done in my life. If God had that kind of control over his own nature, he would not have planned that I do those things. He would have planned existance so that we would not suffer and I would have never done them in the first place.
Scripture indicates that nature in passages where it grieves God concerning certain things. You do not grieve over your plan if it is perfect. You grieve over things that you would rather not have to be.
Last edited by Phazelwood; 12-05-2011 at 10:39 AM..
Not necessarily, God, however, knowing every choice we could ever make, has prepared the way for them all.
God did not plan that I would do the bad things I have done in my life. If God had that kind of control over his own nature, he would not have planned that I do those things. He would have planned existance so that we would not suffer and I would have never done them in the first place.
Scripture indicates that nature in passages where it grieves God concerning certain things. You do not grieve over your plan if it is perfect. You grieve over things that you would rather not have to be.
Actually, God did plan for the bad things that happen also. Did not God desire that Joseph be thrown into the pit? Did not God desire that Pharoah bring forth more hardship on the Israelites?
God has so planned each of our lives that Jesus says that not even a sparrow falls to the ground without the Father. That the hairs on our head are numbered. Surely, there can't be one step in the journey of our lives that God hasn't thought of. Think of this. He is the best Father we could ever have. If we have thought about our Children's future and planned for their experiences and events then surely the Father in Heaven as done so with His children (which is all of us).
Now sure there is murder, crime, death, etc.. But they all have a part in His plan. They all have a part in bringing us into that Sonship. For in the end all those things (which to us are evil) are actually working towards God in un understanding the importance of Goodness.
When God placed Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden and told them not to eat the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, did He expect them to obey His commandment or did their disobedience come as a surprise to Him?
Why, if it was His intention that they remain forever in their garden paradise, did He permit Satan to tempt them with the promise of godhood? Or did Satan gain entrance to the Garden without God's permission? Was this all part of a plan that unfolded as it did for a very good reason or was the Fall of Adam an enormous, unforeseen glitch in God's plan for mankind?
As an omniscient God, He knew they would fail. He knew he would redeem them. He knew everything all along.
Genesis records the first prophecy regarding the Messiah that was to come. He knew it then.
Again your only looking at there being only one way to wisdom of good and evil from the law. However scripture tells us there are two ways to gain wisdom of good and evil from the law.
The letter that killeth and the law written in our heart.
What you are saying Christy is that the only way for Adam and Eve to gain the knowledge of sin and death was to fall into sin and death.
Is not that the same thoughts others have put forth and you have been fighting against?
What I'm attempting to say (as Mystic & Katzpur have already stated)...but apparently it's not getting across...is that they had no basis for KNOWING what sin/disobedience was and this is based on what is written in the story...KNOWING didn't come until after they ate of the tree...THEN THEY KNEW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN GOOD AND EVIL. Until one LEARNS what something is, which is accomplished by experience, one can't KNOW ANYTHING. Words do not equal experiential knowledge.
Like someone else posted...you can tell a child what will happen if they touch something hot...but until they actually touch that hot thing and get burned...they do not KNOW what you are talking about...they are just words that have no experience behind them. Do you understand????
You inferring that they had some kind of knowledge of good and evil before they ate of the tree is nothing more than pure speculation because the story does not tell us that...and so, your theology has a major flaw.
If you read this story as a "literal" event and take the facts just as they are...they were completely SET UP by God to fail. There is no way around that if you read the story "literally" as a "literal" event and is why it has to be read METAPHORICALLY so that we can discern what the spiritual message is...the "literal" story has way too many holes in it.
Actually, God did plan for the bad things that happen also. Did not God desire that Joseph be thrown into the pit? Did not God desire that Pharoah bring forth more hardship on the Israelites?
God has so planned each of our lives that Jesus says that not even a sparrow falls to the ground without the Father. That the hairs on our head are numbered. Surely, there can't be one step in the journey of our lives that God hasn't thought of. Think of this. He is the best Father we could ever have. If we have thought about our Children's future and planned for their experiences and events then surely the Father in Heaven as done so with His children (which is all of us).
Now sure there is murder, crime, death, etc.. But they all have a part in His plan. They all have a part in bringing us into that Sonship. For in the end all those things (which to us are evil) are actually working towards God in un understanding the importance of Goodness.
The fact that God knows and has prepared the way for everything we do and is with us every step does not mean he made a calculated plan that included someone to murder another.
It means that it is the nature of the process of creation to being one with God, that is a part of God that cannot change because God does not change.
You do not grieve over your perfect plan, God grieves which means he'd prefer it not to be. To say that God planned it, when he would have preferred not to and had the power to plan otherwise has no rational answer as to why that would be.
The fact that God knows and has prepared the way for everything we do and is with us every step does not mean he made a calculated plan that included someone to murder another.
Sure He did.
Act 9:16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
What about the murder of Christ? Surely, you believe that was planned by God from the beginning don't you?
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It means that it is the nature of the process of creation to being one with God, that is a part of God that cannot change because God does not change.
You do not grieve over your perfect plan, God grieves which means he'd prefer it not to be. To say that God planned it, when he would have preferred not to and had the power to plan otherwise has no rational answer as to why that would be.
I never suggest that God is grieving over His plan. Though people are dieing, I don't believe that God is grieving over it. I believe all this is as designed.
What I'm attempting to say (as Mystic & Katzpur have already stated)...but apparently it's not getting across...is that they had no basis for KNOWING what sin/disobedience was and this is based on what is written in the story...KNOWING didn't come until after they ate of the tree...THEN THEY KNEW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN GOOD AND EVIL. Until one LEARNS what something is, which is accomplished by experience, one can't KNOW ANYTHING. Words do not equal experiential knowledge.
Like someone else posted...you can tell a child what will happen if they touch something hot...but until they actually touch that hot thing and get burned...they do not KNOW what you are talking about...they are just words that have no experience behind them. Do you understand????
You inferring that they had some kind of knowledge of good and evil before they ate of the tree is nothing more than pure speculation because the story does not tell us that...and so, your theology has a major flaw.
If you read this story as a "literal" event and take the facts just as they are...they were completely SET UP by God to fail. There is no way around that if you read the story "literally" as a "literal" event and is why it has to be read METAPHORICALLY so that we can discern what the spiritual message is...the "literal" story has way too many holes in it.
Correct in saying they were "set up by God to fail". That is exactly what iit was. And I don't have any reason to not take it literally and somewhat metaphorically.
What I'm attempting to say (as Mystic & Katzpur have already stated)...but apparently it's not getting across...is that they had no basis for KNOWING what sin/disobedience was and this is based on what is written in the story...KNOWING didn't come until after they ate of the tree...THEN THEY KNEW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN GOOD AND EVIL. Until one LEARNS what something is, which is accomplished by experience, one can't KNOW ANYTHING. Words do not equal experiential knowledge.
Like someone else posted...you can tell a child what will happen if they touch something hot...but until they actually touch that hot thing and get burned...they do not KNOW what you are talking about...they are just words that have no experience behind them. Do you understand????
You inferring that they had some kind of knowledge of good and evil before they ate of the tree is nothing more than pure speculation because the story does not tell us that...and so, your theology has a major flaw.
If you read this story as a "literal" event and take the facts just as they are...they were completely SET UP by God to fail. There is no way around that if you read the story "literally" as a "literal" event and is why it has to be read METAPHORICALLY so that we can discern what the spiritual message is...the "literal" story has way too many holes in it.
Seems to me you are confusing 'mental reasoning' with 'obedience'. God gave humans mental reasoning. If God told Adam not to do something, with his mental reasoning Adam would have known what God was saying. Adam did it anyway, thus through his mental reasoning, he chose to disobey.
Act 9:16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
What about the murder of Christ? Surely, you believe that was planned by God from the beginning don't you?
I never suggest that God is grieving over His plan. Though people are dieing, I don't believe that God is grieving over it. I believe all this is as designed.
God gets what He desires.
Of course God grieves, he says he does, there would be no reason to grieve over a perfect plan.
He never planned it, knowing the nature of things and what will be, does not mean an intent of planning exists. Creation has a nature, and that is how it is.
God grieves because of what we must go through, not because we are going through what he planned.
Do you believe God could have created a plan that did not include suffering? If so ,then what kind of being would plan it anyway?
Not the kind of being God is.
If not, then that suggests that something must be a certain way as opposed to a plan.
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