Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
We are not suggesting that we must sin to know what sin is, pneuma. You are arguing against a ghost concept. We are saying that a brand new first of its kind freshly created intellect had no such concepts to relate to. There has to be a first for everything and the first of us had to experience it for us all.
Yes, but I don't think you are quite understanding me brother.
The question is did Adam have an understanding of sin and death before he ate from the tree?
If sin and death were all around him would he not have the concept to relate to?
Paul said sin was in the world so to me that would equate with Adam understanding the concept of sin, without sinning himself.
Phazelwood, I don't think God have created existance any other way then what He did it. That doesn't negate the idea that God can do as He pleases. But what we know about God is that what He does is all perfect.
Do you believe that God planned for Adam and Evil to take of the forbidden fruit?
Well, God doing as he pleases also has a context. If the nature of things is for man to mess up, then that has nothing to do with God doing as he pleases.
Scripture shows that God desires people to something other than what they did. But what manb does, isn't what God does.
I do not think God planned for man to screw up, it is how things are in the process to being one with him. That would not prevent God from knowing all that would happen and preparing the way for it.
Yes, but I don't think you are quite understanding me brother.
The question is did Adam have an understanding of sin and death before he ate from the tree?
We understand each other, pneuma . . . but we disagree about what the first ever infant intellect would know about without experience. Adam understood nothing of sin or death.
Quote:
If sin and death were all around him would he not have the concept to relate to?
Paul said sin was in the world so to me that would equate with Adam understanding the concept of sin, without sinning himself.
The existence of something does not automatically imply an understanding of it by an intellect.
Trettep, I think where we may have a difference is how we view existance in the first place. I personally think that our realm is a part of God, we are within God right now, our experience is all a part of the natural process from creation to being one with God. The life we know, our perception of reality is how our lack of knowledge perceives it all.
I am not sure if you do, most people seem to think God is outside of time and space and is separate from us, so things are perceived as if we would undertake a task of creating something.
So the difference is that you may think God undertook creation as a task, I see creation as an inherant part of Gods nature.
Trettep, I think where we may have a difference is how we view existance in the first place. I personally think that our realm is a part of God, we are within God right now, our experience is all a part of the natural process from creation to being one with God. The life we know, our perception of reality is how our lack of knowledge perceives it all.
I am not sure if you do, most people seem to think God is outside of time and space and is separate from us, so things are perceived as if we would undertake a task of creating something.
So the difference is that you may think God undertook creation as a task, I see creation as an inherant part of Gods nature.
Phazelwood, I have shown you scriptures that show that God causes suffering. Do you not think that people suffered and died in the Great Flood? How about Sodom and Gomorrah?
Phazelwood, I have shown you scriptures that show that God causes suffering. Do you not think that people suffered and died in the Great Flood? How about Sodom and Gomorrah?
Again, we view things differently, the old testament stories are writers using literal events to depict what God does with in us spiritually.
What I do not believe is that God created a plan, then whoops, we need plan "B" because man isn't acting like God wanted.
While I understand where you are coming from, to show me those scriptures while seemingly ignoring scriptures where Gods desire that people act a certain way did not come to pass. Sounds more like a contradiction than a point that refutes what I am saying.
Of course people suffer and die from all kinds of things. It is how things are and God can't change it. He has prepared the way for us.
Well, God doing as he pleases also has a context. If the nature of things is for man to mess up, then that has nothing to do with God doing as he pleases.
Scripture shows that God desires people to something other than what they did. But what manb does, isn't what God does.
I do not think God planned for man to screw up, it is how things are in the process to being one with him. That would not prevent God from knowing all that would happen and preparing the way for it.
You do you believe that everything is going according to how God planned it to go?
Again, we view things differently, the old testament stories are writers using literal events to depict what God does with in us spiritually.
What I do not believe is that God created a plan, then whoops, we need plan "B" because man isn't acting like God wanted.
While I understand where you are coming from, to show me those scriptures while seemingly ignoring scriptures where Gods desire that people act a certain way did not come to pass. Sounds more like a contradiction than a point that refutes what I am saying.
Of course people suffer and die from all kinds of things. It is how things are and God can't change it. He has prepared the way for us.
So you don't believe that God ACTUALLY destroyed the world with a flood or destroyed the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah?
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
I just wanted to set the context for the thought that sin existed BEFORE Adam sinned--I see this as saying that Adam introduced sin and then AFTER sin was in the world of men AFTER Adam was evicted from Eden, all men still died because of the sin of Adam. I do not see this as evidence that there was sin and death in Eden. Where in this verse is that indicated? It says by One man (Adam), sin entered into the world and it was for this reason death came. Is there other scripture which says that there was sin existing beside Adam before he disobeyed the command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? It says death reigned from ADAM to Moses, before Moses received the law. How does that pertain to the time BEFORE Adam sinned?
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
I just wanted to set the context for the thought that sin existed BEFORE Adam sinned--I see this as saying that Adam introduced sin and then AFTER sin was in the world of men AFTER Adam was evicted from Eden, all men still died because of the sin of Adam. I do not see this as evidence that there was sin and death in Eden. Where in this verse is that indicated? It says by One man (Adam), sin entered into the world and it was for this reason death came. Is there other scripture which says that there was sin existing beside Adam before he disobeyed the command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? It says death reigned from ADAM to Moses, before Moses received the law. How does that pertain to the time BEFORE Adam sinned?
Yeah, this idea that there was sin BEFORE Adam would only contradict the scriptures.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
