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For those of you who don't know and don't want to take any effort to look it up, here's a summary of Calvin's theology, known as Tulip. [/SIZE]
Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin) Unconditional Election [/SIZE] Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement)[/SIZE] Irresistible Grace[/SIZE] Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)[/SIZE]
The first two I agree with and can be clearly seen in the Biblical teachings. However the last three are all clearly contrary to what the New Testament teaches. Why?
1. Christ died for all.
2. God's will can be resisted. Acts 7
3. No guaranteed perseverance for the saints. People can and do fall away and the New Testament clearly warns against this in many places.
Calvin based it all on an idea that God's will will be done in all cases. He elects some, and because of his election they will be in heaven one day, whether they want to or not, no matter what they do in life. Others, according to Calvin, are by God's free choice, destined to be damned, and there is no chance for their salvation, no matter what they do.
I don't claim to be a Calvinist expert, but I think I have it pretty close.
Well Prairie, you are 3/5 correct. LIP is false as you say. But so is TU. How can you possibly believe that God elects some for salvation and others to eternal destruction? And man is depraved but certainly not incapable of choosing God.
You did a good job explaining what TULIP is, but I'm sorry to say you still accept part of Calvin's false doctrine. (Nothing personal my friend).
Let's face it..... Calvinism has spread like wildfire into a lot of our churches. Its gotten so bad that almost all of us personally know someone from our church who is a calvinist , even if you don't attend a calvinist church.
I've read websites that estimate that nearly 30% of preachers in America are calvinist , and this does not include those who accept the 5 points of calvinism but " don't like the label". Now.....whether the percentage is that high or not , the fact is calvinism is big right now.
So what's your opinion? Do you think calvinism has caught up to christianity in sheer numbers or do you think there are still more christians in our churches than calvinists? Me.....I'm not sure .
Percent wise, I don't know how many denominations are calvinists, but I would venture to quesss it's right up there. They each seem to beleive in at least one of the five points of calvinism. The sad part is that many of the congregants don't even realize they do.
If you believe faith alone saves, you are a calvinist.
If you believe that we are so totally depraved that we cannot seek God unless he regenerates us first, you are a calvinist.
If you believe that God chooses some for heaven and the rest for eternal destruction, you are a calvinist.
If you believe that Jesus died only for some, you are a calvinist.
If you beleive once saved always saved, you are a calvinist.
This I can tell you. No member of the church of Christ believes in any of TULIP. We do not believe that faith alone saves. We believe the elect is the collective body of Christ (the church) who were predestined. We believe Christ died for all men, and that you most certainly can lose your salvation.
I think you should accept Calvinists as Christians because they believe that Christ died for their sins and he is their Lord, a Christian belief... right? Calvinism is just an explanation for "how" God works. It may be erroneous but I'm not sure it's non-Christian because of that.
Regarding limited atonement... I think some degree of limited atonement is understandable and not at odds with what is presented in the Bible or Christian tradition throughout the ages. Christ's sacrifice is sufficient since its worth is infinite, but not everybody will necessarily accept the sacrifice, so it is not effecacious for the non-elect.
Percent wise, I don't know how many denominations are calvinists, but I would venture to quesss it's right up there. They each seem to beleive in at least one of the five points of calvinism. The sad part is that many of the congregants don't even realize they do.
If you believe faith alone saves, you are a calvinist.
Got a verse that says otherwise?
Quote:
If you believe that we are so totally depraved that we cannot seek God unless he regenerates us first, you are a calvinist.
Got a verse that says otherwise?
Quote:
If you believe that God chooses some for heaven and the rest for eternal destruction, you are a calvinist.
Got a verse that says otherwise?
Quote:
If you believe that Jesus died only for some, you are a calvinist.
This is "Limited Attonement". I'm actually borderline on this one. Matt 25 shows Jesus saying he died for many--and it implies that he died for the sheep, but not the goats. John 17 he intercedes only for the elect.
Quote:
If you beleive once saved always saved, you are a calvinist.
Got a verse that says otherwise?
Quote:
This I can tell you. No member of the church of Christ believes in any of TULIP. We do not believe that faith alone saves.
Then no member of the Church of Christ is a believer in the true Gospel--if you believe that you need to add to the work of Christ for salvation. I'm not that arrogant to think that I'm good enough.
Quote:
We believe the elect is the collective body of Christ (the church) who were predestined.
What about the rest? Only the church is predestined? That sounds like Calvinism.
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ T=total depravity. Man is entirely sinful by nature and is unable to save himself. This is correct.
U=unconditional grace. God gives us his grace without any merit or worthiness in us. Again this is correct.
L=limited atonement. Christ's death was not credited to all people, but only to those chosen for salvation. This is unscriptural.
I=irresistible grace. People cannot resist God's saving grace, which is offered only to the elect. This is incorrect because God's grace is sincerely offered to all. It is their fault if they reject it.
P=perseverance of the saints. It is impossible to fall from faith. This too is false.
The main error of Calvinism is that God has predestined some to salvation and some to damnation. Calvinists also treat the sacraments as signs rather than true means of grace.
They do not believe in the real presence of Christ's body and blood for all recipients of the Lord's Supper. Calvinists generally confuse the roles of church and state.
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
It should be noted that the Reformed churches and of Calvin belongs to the second phase of the Protestant Reformation and it soon became evident that doctrine espoused by Calvin was developing in a direction independent of Martin Luther's.
It is within the reformed Churchs that TULIP is held as correct...where as in the Lutheran Church the "LIP" of TULIP is held as not scriptural.
However, the "LIP" of Calvinism does not make one in and of itself a "non-Christian" because scripture doesn't make such claim.
Scriptures does however by claim that
works are the reflection of faith not contributing to being saved one is not saved by obedience to the law
by not believing that Jesus rose physically from the dead
by not believeing that the fullness of the deity (trinity) dwells in bodily form in Jesus
T=total depravity. Man is entirely sinful by nature and is unable to save himself. This is correct.
U=unconditional grace. God gives us his grace without any merit or worthiness in us. Again this is correct.
L=limited atonement. Christ's death was not credited to all people, but only to those chosen for salvation. This is unscriptural.
Righteousness was credited to Abraham upon his believing. Likewise, we become children of God upon believing. It's certainly understandable that it isn't efficacious to those that don't believe.
Quote:
I=irresistible grace. People cannot resist God's saving grace, which is offered only to the elect. This is incorrect because God's grace is sincerely offered to all. It is their fault if they reject it.
Until you have been regenerated and are able to understand it, you are unable to make the decision to reject it. I'm not sure anyone that is not blinded by their sin WOULD reject it.
Quote:
P=perseverance of the saints. It is impossible to fall from faith. This too is false.
You don't save yourself, how would you be able to lose yourself?
Quote:
The main error of Calvinism is that God has predestined some to salvation and some to damnation. Calvinists also treat the sacraments as signs rather than true means of grace.
You mean like Paul says in Romans 8-9? God predestines those he foreknows...and then calls those he predestines, and justifies those he calls, and glorifies them?
Keep in mind that faith is still required.
Honestly...anyone that has any argument about this obviously has never read the book of Romans. Why is it that God predestined an entire nation (The Jews) but you guys have a problem with him predestining an individual person?
This is "Limited Attonement". I'm actually borderline on this one. Matt 25 shows Jesus saying he died for many--and it implies that he died for the sheep, but not the goats.
Jesus died for all men, for both the sheep and the goats. (Colossians 1) Paul teaches that He is the Savior of all men (1 Timothy 4:10)
Let's face it..... Calvinism has spread like wildfire into a lot of our churches. Its gotten so bad that almost all of us personally know someone from our church who is a calvinist , even if you don't attend a calvinist church.
I've read websites that estimate that nearly 30% of preachers in America are calvinist , and this does not include those who accept the 5 points of calvinism but " don't like the label". Now.....whether the percentage is that high or not , the fact is calvinism is big right now.
So what's your opinion? Do you think calvinism has caught up to christianity in sheer numbers or do you think there are still more christians in our churches than calvinists? Me.....I'm not sure .
Do you know why there are so many preachers that believe and teach "The doctorines of grace" or "Reformed Theology"? I refuse to call it "Calvinism because that term is almost meaningless.
The reason is, that when immersing yourself in the study of God's Holy word it becomes very apperent that these doctorines are the absolute truth and nothing else.
Our God is a God of order and logic and so is His Word and His plans for His world. Reformed Theology is systematic and builds on the clearly known to explain less clear portions of scripture. You never have contradictions in Reformed beliefs because there is no contradictions in God or His word.
I'll give a good example out of many of thousands there are.
It's pretty well a universal Christian belief that God is all powerful, all knowing and His purposes and Will can not be defeated in any manner at all.
Against this truth you have the very very common Christian belief that it's a Man's will that decides wether he becomes a Christian or not. This belief just can not stand if the first belief is true. The will of a man can not in any way frutrate the will and purposes of God Almighty. The truth of the matter is that God has chosen His own from before the foundations of the world as it tells us in Eph. 1. Now, people do not like to believe that truth no matter how clearly it is spelled out in the Bible because it contradicts with what and who they believe God should be so they replace the truth for a lie. That doctorine by the way is the I in the 5 basic pillars of the faith, TULIP. The I is the Irresistible Grace of God. If God has chosen you before the foundation of the world to be a Christian you are going to become a Christian no matter what. That's the only way it can be, based on the fact that God is All powerful.
AS one of my favorite reformed pastor says, "If there were just one single atom in the entire universe running around outside of the will and power of God it could undo all of God's plans for His creation.
As a person who has spent decades in Reformed and Arminian churchs I can tell you that the Reformed believers have far fewer problems with their faith and trust in the Lord. They have far fewer vexing problems with their beliefs and understandings of all of the basics of Christian Theology. They tend to be very much more secure in their salvation and comforted by their understanding of God's purposes for His people. They tend very much to avoid pointing fingers at particular sins because they know the only remedy to sin is Salvation and other than preaching the Gospel to sinners it's God's work to deal with sin.
Moderator cut: off topic. The bible is clear in that we are all sinners in the sight of a Holy God. The only difference between me and the grossest sinner of them all is God's Grace. Nothing I have done to earn it, it's a free gift and I praise His Name for it. This gift does in no way lift me up above the rest of humanity but rather puts me in a position of a servant to those who do not know the Lord. How dare me call anyone out for their sins rather than show them the Love of God that is in Christ Jesus. He came to save the sick and the broken the ugly and horrible.
It's not sins I'm concerned about in my neighbours, it's sin and that is something that is universal. My concern is expressed by telling them about Jesus and what He has done for me and what He can do for them. That's what I'm told to do in God's word and if it's His will then He does the rest and deals with the persons sins, not me, it's not my job or my place to do.
That kind of faith is the result of belief in Reformed Theology. I'm just another sinner saved by His wonderful Grace and He is God Almighty who is not answerable to me for whatever He does. If He does not reveal to me some of the mysteries of His purposes or reasons for them, it's His sovereign choice and will at work and I must be content with that.
Last edited by Miss Blue; 12-21-2011 at 10:20 AM..
Reason: had to delete the political reference as it always deraILils threads in this forum:)
@luckynow. Not a single thing you said is true. But ill focus on the Ephesians 1 things , because a lot of calvinists love to use this as a prooftext for their theology. When Paul talks about "we" being predestined to glory and such , the "we " he is talking the apostles ( him Peter John ect....) .
This is why in verse 13 , he switches from "we" to " you" stating to the ephesians " and you ALSO when you believes were sealed with the promise of the Holy Spirit. " Therefore , the calvinist argument for Ephesians 1 is null and void and many studies of the greek confirm the change in pattern in verse 13. Case closed.
Moderator cut: delete.
Remember there are baby christians watching. And I don't want them getting the two cinfused
Last edited by Miss Blue; 12-21-2011 at 10:33 AM..
Reason: off topic and a rant about posters disagreeing with the op
I will dare tell you that the tenents of Reformed Theology, or The doctorines of Grace or the Theology of St. Augustine are the closest thing to true Christianity that exists. My example of Eph is just one of HUNDREDS of refrences that are not even disputable without doing a huge injustice to the scriptures. Your obvious fear of being wrong comes through your post loud and clear. I have no need to convert anyone to Reformed Theology but I sure have found that a very large % of even enemies of this Theology believe it once they start to study it even though their purpose is to discredit it. John MacArthur is one such pastor. Reformed Churches have done more work in evangalism than the rest of all the protestent churches put together. Did you know that almost all Korean Christians are Presbyterians? Does that threaten you.Moderator cut: delete
Last edited by Miss Blue; 12-21-2011 at 10:37 AM..
Reason: portion of post you answer was deleted
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(Nothing personal my friend).
