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Again we will have to agree to disagree and so I guess, we don't have anymore to discuss on this (you and I) but I did want to know what your thoughts or beliefs are on the scriptures that I posted, for reference. Thanks and God bless.
I asked you before, Mike, what you think of this scripture.
Quote:
The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord, as the rivers of water: He turneth it whithersoever He will" (Proverb 21:1).
God bless.
I no longer use the term 'free will' simply because people have problems with defining it and often tend to get philosophical about it. Man has 'volition.' The ability to chose between alternatives.
Jesus Christ controls history. His control of historical events does not preclude man's ability to make volitional choices, but a man's decisions will be in accordance with his circumstances. And yet, those circumstances arise from man's volitional choices. It's a matter of cause and effect. Thought leads to action which has consequences which lead to other consequences which play out in human history. The unfolding of human history is caused by the decisions of man. God uses the volition of man both positive and negative to guide the course of human history. In this interdependent system of cause and effect man's volition is the uncaused cause of human function so that the course of human function is just as man thinks it, wills it, does it. And God sovereignly decreed that it be so. Without interfering with man's volition, God uses man's volition to control the course of human history through the various dispensations of human history. If any of this sounds contradictory, you need to understand that while God is Sovereign He permits man's volition to function while sometimes overruling it to bring about His desired ends. In other words, man makes volitional choices but those choices may not always have their intended effect. Also, while God will not prevent the desire, he may prevent the desire from being carried out.
What does that have to do with Proverbs 21:1?
Proverbs 21:1 The king's heart is like channels of water in the hand of the Lord; He turns it wherever He wishes.
First, what is the heart? In John 13:2 the Greek word KARDIA is translated ''heart''. The heart is the place of influence inside a man's soul. Proverbs 23:7 says, 'For for as he thinks within himself (his heart), so he is'. We think with what the Bible calls the heart.
Man has volition yet he acts under the influence of divinely-directed circumstances and divine operations which have taken man's volition into account. The kings (or anyones) heart can be directed into one channel or another channel through divinely-directed circumstances and divine operations. Circumstances have an affect on your decisions.
You cannot infer from that verse that God will save all men contrary to man's negative volition. God will bring about circumstances which are most condusive to encouraging positive volition but He will not flick a switch and turn negative volition to positive volition.
The original post compares verses in which the offer of salvation is extended with verses which show that the offer can be refused.
I am sorry, Mystic. I will have to disagree with you and as I base much of my belief on the scriptures, we don't really have a common base imo to discuss this because I know your thoughts about the scriptures. So I will just have to say, I respectfully disagree with you. God bless.
As long as you still love me . . . it is all good, Shana. My views are a bit out there for most people . . . but I had to conform them to what we know from science to explain to my intellect what I know to be true from my experience. God Bless you, Shana.
Assuming this is true, we live in a very dangerous world as far as our temporal life is concerned. Are you implying, Mystic that our prayers are ineffective, for instance if we pray for safety from murderers, or for protection while traveling. Does the mad-man's free will to rape and/or murder prevent God from granting a petition of divine protection for those who take time to pray? Do you see my dilemma with your insinuation that God does not "meddle" in the affairs of humanity. Why does the scripture tell us to petition God for all the things that we are concerned about? Also, another scripture states that "you have not because you ask not". I also have a Christian friend who believes we can be in the wrong place at the wrong time IF we are not tuned into what the Spirit is saying to us. Just wanted to throw this out there for discussion. Peace - Heartsong
Would love to see discussion on this, heartsong. Since it's off-topic for this thread, just wondering if you'd be willing to make this the o.p. to a new thread?
Are we also saved by dead faith?
Nope. Faith isn't just believing something but acting on it. (The original meaning in Jesus' time)
They shall be known by their fruits.
Works don't save. But are signs of being saved
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My views are a bit out there for most people . . . but I had to conform them to what we know from science to explain to my intellect what I know to be true from my experience. God Bless you, Shana.
God bless.
