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>>The first Christians were Jews and they read the Thora in Synagogue and felt Jesus was the Messiah. There was no written New Testament.
Paul, was a Roman that converted to Christianity and was instrumental in bringing Gentiles to Christ. However, the Jews expected the new converts to get circumcision and to worship like Jews. Then Paul decided Gentiles did not need circumcision or to worship like Jews.
The Jews became resentful and the rest is history, Christianity did not take hold in many Jews.<<
RESPONSE:
Yes. What we call the New Testament begins with the letters of Paul (written starting in the 50's) and ends with the various writings attributed to various church authorities.
There were subsequent additions later, such as the longer ending to Mark's Gospel which dates to the second century, and the story of the woman taken in adultery (John 7 and 8?). Since this story doesn't appear until the 4th century, we can conclude that's when it was added. But copyists continued to make alterations to the New Testament texts for some time.
The Jews recognized that Jesus had not fulfilled the basic Old Testament prophecies of the messiah, and, when Christians began to reject Moasic Law and claim Jesus was divine himself, the Jews anathmatized the Christians from the Jewish synagogues about 85 A.D. It's referred to In John written 96 -106 AD. (Look up "curse of the minum" on the web).
>>The above quote is very Catholic in nature. It talks about celibacy for folks like him (Paul). He also lays down some recommendations for married and unmarried people. This is very Catholic in nature even if he did not call it Catholic at the time.<<
RESPONSE:
Where do you think the Catholic Church got it from? Don't put the cart before the horse
Last edited by ancient warrior; 01-25-2012 at 07:28 AM..
Reason: typo
The Bible is a translation from many older translations of a copies of other copies of passages that were originally passed down by word of mouth. Furthermore, the originals manuscripts do not exist anymore.
IMHO, this extreme worship of the Bible is quite close to idolatry.
When a Christian sect states they are not a religious and they simply follow the Bible to the letter they are in fact creating religion.
I don't believe I ever gave you any interpretation of "Who's ever sins you forgive, they are forgiven," and ""As the Father has sent me, now I send you." You must be confusing me with someone else. Maybe I'm just not remembering, so if I posted an interpretation, please direct me to it.
I agree with you 100% that Jesus was speaking to the apostles when He gave them power and authority to forgive or retain sin.
I disagree with you when you say that the apostles were able to pass this power down to their successors. This is one of your oral traditions. No scripture says such a thing.
Acts 1 says:
"Of the men therefore that have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and went out among us, beginning from the baptism of John, unto the day that he was received up from us, of these must one become a witness with us of his resurrection. And they put forward two, Joseph called Barsabbas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, who knowest the hearts of all men, show of these two the one whom thou hast chosen,to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas fell away, that he might go to his own place. And they gave lots for them; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles."
You shoot yourself in the foot by admitting that .
Church or religion is man made. And the Catholic church preserved Christianity by being the 1st church (or denomination).
The Church is the body of Christ [even if only two and meet in a house] and built by Christ with helpers. Jesus said, "I will build my church and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against her." The powers of Hell are nipping at the feet of the Church but will not prevail because Christ crushes the head of the serpent.
There is nothing wrong with the word religion but only as to whether it is pure or not.
JAS 1:26 "If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridles not his tongue, but deceives his own heart, this man's religion is vain.
JAS 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
1TIM 4:1 "Now the Spirit speaks expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1TIM 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
1TIM 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
1TIM 4:4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: "
Imagine that, "forbidding to marry" in order to serve God. Sounds all too familiar and the cause of great damage to many souls. Such hypocrisy will not go unnoticed on the day of Judgement unless repentance is forthcoming.
REV 18:4 "And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, My people, that you be not partakers of her sins, and that you receive not of her plagues.
REV 18:5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities.
REV 18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she has filled, fill to her double.
REV 18:7 How much she has glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she says in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
REV 18:8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judges her.
REV 18:9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,"
The Church is the body of Christ [even if only two and meet in a house] and built by Christ with helpers. Jesus said, "I will build my church and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against her." The powers of Hell are nipping at the feet of the Church but will not prevail because Christ crushes the head of the serpent.
There is nothing wrong with the word religion but only as to whether it is pure or not.
JAS 1:26 "If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridles not his tongue, but deceives his own heart, this man's religion is vain.
JAS 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
1TIM 4:1 "Now the Spirit speaks expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1TIM 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
1TIM 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
1TIM 4:4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: "
Imagine that, "forbidding to marry" in order to serve God. Sounds all too familiar and the cause of great damage to many souls. Such hypocrisy will not go unnoticed on the day of Judgement unless repentance is forthcoming.
REV 18:4 "And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, My people, that you be not partakers of her sins, and that you receive not of her plagues.
REV 18:5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities.
REV 18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she has filled, fill to her double.
REV 18:7 How much she has glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she says in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
REV 18:8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judges her.
REV 18:9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,"
Its really amusing how you pick a line here and there to build an argument around. Your argument has no merit when you take the entire Bible into context. Nice read on celibacy and the priesthood:
Its really amusing how you pick a line here and there to build an argument around. Your argument has no merit when you take the entire Bible into context. Nice read on celibacy and the priesthood:
Taken from that article is the following that only proves my point:
"Even in the Eastern churches, though, there have always been some restrictions on marriage and ordination. Although married men may become priests, unmarried priests may not marry, and married priests, if widowed, may not remarry. Moreover, there is an ancient Eastern discipline of choosing bishops from the ranks of the celibate monks, so their bishops are all unmarried."
This is contrary to the teachings of Christ. To make oneself celibate [eunuch] is entirely different then to be told you can not marry.
Thanks for proving my point. I have met Priests who protested such a policy and I signed their petition in favor of their protest. Unfortunately they think that the only way to serve God was as a Priest, not understanding that all those who preached Christ in the beginning were every day people with no title but fisherman or tax collector, etc. The true Priesthood is all believers even as Jesus said in, REV 1:6 "And [Jesus] has made us Kings and Priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen." We are all to reign in life as Kings not beggars if Christ is in us and to be Priests of prayer and a help to others in finding the Kingdom.
How sad it is that Christianity has come to be what it is. You seem be in denial of the abuses that have gone on through the century's and most notably in this day and age. I have only focused on this but yes, things that are wrong go on elsewhere also. So, as Jesus said, "Unless you repent you shall all likewise perish." This Scripture favors none because Truth is the Truth. The whole of the context of the Bible supports what I am saying.
Taken from that article is the following that only proves my point:
"Even in the Eastern churches, though, there have always been some restrictions on marriage and ordination. Although married men may become priests, unmarried priests may not marry, and married priests, if widowed, may not remarry. Moreover, there is an ancient Eastern discipline of choosing bishops from the ranks of the celibate monks, so their bishops are all unmarried."
This is contrary to the teachings of Christ. To make oneself celibate [eunuch] is entirely different then to be told you can not marry.
Thanks for proving my point. I have met Priests who protested such a policy and I signed their petition in favor of their protest. Unfortunately they think that the only way to serve God was as a Priest, not understanding that all those who preached Christ in the beginning were every day people with no title but fisherman or tax collector, etc. The true Priesthood is all believers even as Jesus said in, REV 1:6 "And [Jesus] has made us Kings and Priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen." We are all to reign in life as Kings not beggars if Christ is in us and to be Priests of prayer and a help to others in finding the Kingdom.
How sad it is that Christianity has come to be what it is. You seem be in denial of the abuses that have gone on through the century's and most notably in this day and age. I have only focused on this but yes, things that are wrong go on elsewhere also. So, as Jesus said, "Unless you repent you shall all likewise perish." This Scripture favors none because Truth is the Truth. The whole of the context of the Bible supports what I am saying.
The bible has many contradictions and most of the time one can find quotes that support opposing views. Here, Paul speaks about celibacy for himself and preaches against
divorce.
Please read Corinthians 7.
By the way, I oppose celibacy for priests. However, I don't think is evil or antichristian.
ddivorce. Please
Taken from that article is the following that only proves my point:
"Even in the Eastern churches, though, there have always been some restrictions on marriage and ordination. Although married men may become priests, unmarried priests may not marry, and married priests, if widowed, may not remarry. Moreover, there is an ancient Eastern discipline of choosing bishops from the ranks of the celibate monks, so their bishops are all unmarried."
This is contrary to the teachings of Christ. To make oneself celibate [eunuch] is entirely different then to be told you can not marry.
Thanks for proving my point. I have met Priests who protested such a policy and I signed their petition in favor of their protest. Unfortunately they think that the only way to serve God was as a Priest, not understanding that all those who preached Christ in the beginning were every day people with no title but fisherman or tax collector, etc. The true Priesthood is all believers even as Jesus said in, REV 1:6 "And [Jesus] has made us Kings and Priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen." We are all to reign in life as Kings not beggars if Christ is in us and to be Priests of prayer and a help to others in finding the Kingdom.
How sad it is that Christianity has come to be what it is. You seem be in denial of the abuses that have gone on through the century's and most notably in this day and age. I have only focused on this but yes, things that are wrong go on elsewhere also. So, as Jesus said, "Unless you repent you shall all likewise perish." This Scripture favors none because Truth is the Truth. The whole of the context of the Bible supports what I am saying.
Give me a break. No one is forced to be celibate. Those priests who circulated that petition knew what they were in for. Why, knowing that they would have to be celibate to be priests, did they become priests if they don't like being celibate? How can they complain about it now when they knew about it before hand? And don't tell me it's because being priests is the only way they could serve God and spread the Gospel. There are many lay Catholic theologians, catechists, teachers, and evangelizers, many with apologetics web sites. Unfortinately, there are many Liberal dissidents in the Church....like the ones who also want the RCC to change its position on murder, um, abortion....fat chance!!
You are so wrong on so many points, points that have been refutted time and time again, but you dismiss off-hand any explanation and the Catholic interpretation of Scriptuire given to you for them. You are full of presumption and false pride.
Give me a break. No one is forced to be celibate. Those priests who circulated that petition knew what they were in for. Why, knowing that they would have to be celibate to be priests, did they become priests if they don't like being celibate? How can they complain about it now when they knew about it before hand? And don't tell me it's because being priests is the only way they could serve God and spread the Gospel. There are many lay Catholic theologians, catechists, teachers, and evangelizers, many with apologetics web sites. Unfortinately, there are many Liberal dissidents in the Church....like the ones who also want the RCC to change its position on murder, um, abortion....fat chance!!
You are so wrong on so many points, points that have been refuted time and time again, but you dismiss off-hand any explanation and the Catholic interpretation of Scripture given to you for them. You are full of presumption and false pride.
Those Priest where young at one time with a zeal to serve God but duped with a false doctrine that says you can not do it as a Priest without being celibate. I call that deception and not fully understanding ones own nature. Forbidding to marry for this reason is a doctrine of demons but you do not believe God when He says that. What can led to problems in this area is that many have a form of religion and Godliness based on law only and lies but without the Power and Truth. Without the Power an Truth here is what happens: ROM 7:18 "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwells no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
ROM 7:19-20 "For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwells in me."
The truth is, long time repressed sexual desire can go astray and it did. 1COR 7:2 "Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband."
The problem is, you are biased and will not see. I grew up with Catholics, Jews and others and have no biased against them as people but only against false doctrine. I do not agree fully with Baptist. Pentecostal, Methodists, Mormons or any others because I weigh all things with the Truth. The one great Truth is to Love them anyways. 1COR 2:15 "But he that is spiritual judges all things [not the person]; yet he himself is judged of no man." If people would know the Truth, the Truth would set them free., You do not offer them that but only excuses to go along with same old lie.
By the way, you said I have false pride [whatever that is]; pride comes only by contending against the Truth. 1JN 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. Your pride comes from believing false doctrine. PROV 13:10 "Only by pride comes contention [against the truth]: but with the well advised is wisdom."
Last edited by garya123; 01-26-2012 at 07:49 AM..
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No one is forced to be celibate. Those priests who circulated that petition knew what they were in for. Why, knowing that they would have to be celibate to be priests, did they become priests if they don't like being celibate? How can they complain about it now when they knew about it before hand? And don't tell me it's because being priests is the only way they could serve God and spread the Gospel. There are many lay Catholic theologians, catechists, teachers, and evangelizers, many with apologetics web sites. Unfortinately, there are many Liberal dissidents in the Church....like the ones who also want the RCC to change its position on murder, um, abortion....fat chance!!
